The Moos Room™

00;00;14;11 - 00;00;20;15
Emily
From Emily and Bradley, both here reunited. And it feels so good once again.

00;00;20;17 - 00;00;41;17
Brad
It is nice. It is nice to at least I get to see your face while we're podcasting. For once, we are both in the midst of lots of extension events. It is summer in Minnesota and research and extension. I've been doing a lot of extension events, lately. It's it's been kind of fun actually getting out and about and talking to farmers and seeing all that stuff.

00;00;41;17 - 00;00;43;12
Brad
So it's it's been busy.

00;00;43;14 - 00;01;02;14
Emily
Yeah. The the summer roadshow is in full swing for both of us. There is no doubt, you know, and yeah, we've been all over the state. We've been in other states. I was recently in Montana. Bradley was recently in Florida. You know, so we are we are mobile. Have car will travel. You know.

00;01;02;15 - 00;01;10;26
Brad
I was there for a conference. I wasn't goofing off. I was there speaking about, beef on dairy, which is what we're going to talk a little bit about today. But.

00;01;10;29 - 00;01;30;06
Emily
Yeah, Bradley has really been on like the beef on dairy circuit. I know he's been speaking this week all across Minnesota at some of our beef team events. And and as Brad and I were talking off air, he just brought up, a question that a farmer asked him. And I think it's a question on all of our minds.

00;01;30;09 - 00;01;48;25
Emily
And I'll kind of give the broad strokes, and then I'm going to turn it over to Bradley for the Bradley show. So this way I get to talk a little bit in this episode, and then I'll just let Brad take it away. Right. But the question that came up again in the context of of beef on dairy, right.

00;01;48;25 - 00;02;12;17
Emily
Like at the current calf prices, which if you have been looking at them, they are bananas right now, right? Like cows are just going for a lot. We'll dive into the numbers. But at these current calf prices, like is it actually feasible to to buy calves to do beef on dairy and actually make money on it? So that that is a question that comes up a lot.

00;02;12;17 - 00;02;24;29
Emily
That is a question that I know was posed to Bradley just this week. So he's been diving into it and yeah, I'll I'll just let him take it away. Bradley, is it feasible?

00;02;25;04 - 00;02;43;24
Brad
That is the question that everybody is asking right now, especially with high calf prices. So we've been traveling around the state and it's been fun talking with farmers. And there's a lot of interest in beef on dairy. And some farmers are trying to figure out a, well, how do we feed these? How do we, you know, what breeds do we use?

00;02;43;29 - 00;03;07;27
Brad
How do we raise them, how do we market them, you name it, in southern part of Minnesota, the question I got from, discussion was about nutritional facts that what do you do once these calves get weaned? So most of them we think about in the beef world, weaning takes place six months afterwards. You know, they're on the cow for a long time, and then you background them and you go into the finishing phases.

00;03;08;03 - 00;03;25;25
Brad
But in a dairy calf, we have to do, we wean them at 200 to 250 pounds. And then so how do we get them to five, 600 pounds. So that was the one of the big questions there was trying to figure that out because we're treating them more like dairy calves instead of beef calves. So there's a lot of unknowns there.

00;03;25;28 - 00;03;52;17
Brad
The other thing that was questioned, from me just last night at one year in central Minnesota, was is paying for high calf prices worth it on these beef and dairy crosses? And I never really thought about it. There was, people, some, cattle buyers there from American Foods Group, and they had just mentioned what the current calf markets were.

00;03;52;19 - 00;04;27;01
Brad
And holy smokes, I didn't realize that the markets were that high. I looked at the markets and I watch them, but they have skyrocketed a lot. So I looked at the markets. I was doing this last night while I was listening, trying to figure this out. So I pulled up, Central Livestock Markets from Albany, Minnesota, so that central Minnesota, if you look at calves that are 95 to 125 pounds, they're going for $800 to 990 per head if you look at beef calves.

00;04;27;01 - 00;04;54;12
Brad
So these would be beef on dairy crosses and some other beef calves, $910 to $1450. Like $1,450 for 116 pound calf. That is crazy. Some of these other ones were 1400 for 100 pounds. So these are beef on dairy crosses going for $1,400, that is. I don't know that. That's crazy.

00;04;54;12 - 00;05;05;16
Emily
That is what I just remember. I mean, it was not long ago where we were basically giving away calves, right? Right. We wanted them right. And now everybody wants there's that thing.

00;05;05;19 - 00;05;28;03
Brad
And and I think the prices just keep going up. You know, when I started in the beef and dairy world in 2018, 2019, those calves were maybe 350 to $400. And they kept increasing and increasing. And, you know, even this past spring they were 8 to 900, maybe 7 to 8, 900, but now, you know, 1400 for the top ones.

00;05;28;03 - 00;05;54;10
Brad
What about the other markets, in Minnesota? To see what those prices were. So I looked at some broader livestock, central livestock and some broader Minnesota. So southern Minnesota calves, they're 95 to 120 5 or 800 to almost $1,200 per calf. Beef calves, 1000 to 1600. So 110 pound calf, $1,600.

00;05;54;12 - 00;06;18;22
Emily
That is just such a huge like initial upfront investment when we think of not just the purchase of the animal. But then there's, you know, the other inputs that animal needs, right? So that brings us back to the question of like, is this actually feasible when we're spending that much money upfront on a calf that we haven't even done anything with?

00;06;18;22 - 00;06;50;03
Brad
Yeah, I agree, and that was the question was does this feasible. Because I presented some economics. And if you want to listen to my beef on dairy rants, I did a three part series back in early February, episode 281 to 283, where I talk about a lot of beef and dairy stuff and some of the things that we went through, but basically showed the first year we could, we grossed about $2,700 per per steer on what we sent beef on dairy.

00;06;50;09 - 00;06;55;16
Brad
So but that doesn't account for labor, doesn't account for feed, doesn't account for the calf value.

00;06;55;16 - 00;06;57;16
Emily
But gross not net.

00;06;57;19 - 00;07;27;15
Brad
Gross not net. But if you take out a 1,300 pound calf out of there, if you bought it now I have $1,400 to basically do all my feed, labor, etc. and I kind of had the conclusion last night that, I don't know, maybe that's not quite worth it to spend that kind of money on that. Now, I don't want to, like, downplay the value of those calves and prevent people from doing that.

00;07;27;15 - 00;07;46;15
Brad
But I'm not. And I like selling calves at 12, $1,300 to we can we'll, we'll we'll sell as many as you want at that price. But for the feeders that are feeding these out, I don't know what what that might be. How do we get to that question or that answer is, is is what we were.

00;07;46;18 - 00;07;49;08
Emily
Probably telling us not to do it. So. Right.

00;07;49;08 - 00;07;49;29
Brad
Exactly.

00;07;49;29 - 00;07;50;26
Emily
In yourself?

00;07;50;28 - 00;08;14;07
Brad
Yes. So recently there was a study that was done by, Melanie Concepcion. And she is a PhD student at Michigan State University that kind of talked about economics of beef on dairy animals. And we're we'll we'll try to get her on the podcast here in the future. Talks a lot about liver abscesses and growth traits and all kinds of that stuff on beef and dairy crosses.

00;08;14;07 - 00;08;39;07
Brad
And it's, a great research study, but we just don't have time to go through all of that today. She looked at the economics so briefly. They looked at, Holstein and beef on dairy Holstein steers from Michigan farms. They found that those beef and dairy crosses got to market 21 days faster. So that's a big economic gain.

00;08;39;07 - 00;09;05;09
Brad
If you can get them to market three weeks faster. They were more feed efficient. So more pounds of gain with less feed that 20% more, a larger ribeye area and they had better yield grades. So which meant better muscling. So now we get to the economics. Their study basically showed that you can get more value from a beef on Dairy Cross.

00;09;05;11 - 00;09;33;27
Brad
Then you can a Holstein steer at market. We know that. And that's a lot of the reason why we people are going this beef and dairy route. So they did some economics and it basically came down to they paid 310 more dollars for a beef on dairy crossbred. So that was the premium price of $310. And their economics showed that they only should have paid $273.

00;09;33;29 - 00;09;56;29
Brad
So basically they paid on average 40 more dollars for the beef on Dairy Cross than they should have. So economically, it probably didn't work out at those high prices. So those are some of the things, especially with calves that are going really high. Now, you have to really think about that premium. And does it make sense to do that.

00;09;57;01 - 00;10;17;11
Brad
So that was kind of their first study where they did. So there's inflated calf prices. But does it actually reflect reflect feedlot performance or the return that you get when they go to market. They did a second study kind of the economics. It came back again where they had these beef on dairy crosses. So these were all on Holstein.

00;10;17;14 - 00;10;50;09
Brad
Cows are premium for the beef on dairy. Crossed $353 more than a Holstein. But their breakeven showed that they should have only cost $281. So that was 70 more dollars, roughly 75 more dollars that they paid than they should have. So they kind of overpaid for those beef and dairy crosses based on what the market conditions suggested that they should get when they market these animals.

00;10;50;11 - 00;11;15;06
Emily
Boy, that's a good question. You know, and, you know, I'm also thinking, too, that we need to take a grain of salt with this, too, and that this is also from a single kind of snapshot in time. Right? Because I think we know Brad knows Brad has shared extensively. Right. Like beef and dairy crosses are good, right? They do have their benefits like this.

00;11;15;06 - 00;11;40;29
Emily
This is not to say that the whole concept of these crosses is bad, because I personally think it's very good. But of course we know there is market volatility. So there are going to be better and worse times to have and be marketing dairy beef crosses. You know, I think that that's an important distinction to make at this point in the conversation, right, is that, you know, this is all fluctuating, right?

00;11;40;29 - 00;12;02;19
Emily
We could be singing an entirely different tune in six months. We have no idea. Right. But the main conclusion we're drawing here is at current prices, right. Or at, you know, this, this great research from conception does kind of share what some of these break evens might be at this point. And so I think it's keeping that in mind.

00;12;02;19 - 00;12;23;01
Emily
And also like we talk about extensively right. Everybody's management is different. You know there are a lot of other factors we aren't considering here. Like what your set up is are you needing to make any other investments in, you know, gates or things like that. Like, are you just getting started or is this something you've been doing for a while?

00;12;23;01 - 00;12;48;11
Emily
So, you know, it's always a much more complicated web than than what we wish it would be. But it's. Yeah, it does raise an interesting question, Bradley. Like, well, what do we do with this information now? Right. Especially it's looking like prices aren't going to come down anytime super soon. So you know, what does that mean? Should we just let these beef dairy calves sit on the market till the prices come down?

00;12;48;11 - 00;12;55;28
Emily
Or are there other things we can try to do? You know, I place you as the expert here, Bradley.

00;12;56;04 - 00;12;57;15
Brad
Oh.

00;12;57;17 - 00;12;59;00
Emily
For better or for worse.

00;12;59;02 - 00;13;22;17
Brad
Yeah. Now, here. Now you're putting me on the spot, trying me to give wise advice, for farmers in the industry. And I'm not sure that I can do that, but I'll try my best. The beef on dairy crosses. They're here to stay. They're not going anywhere. If you look at some reports there, they contribute now to 15 to 20% of the total beef, production in the US.

00;13;22;20 - 00;13;52;16
Brad
And that's a lot. So it has shifted. Doesn't appear that the cattle market is going to rebound any time soon, as I shouldn't say the market the the beef cow heard beef cow numbers actually. So here's my my market advice. So I put into I last night after I had these revelations, while sitting there looking at, beef and dairy crosses and talking to farmers.

00;13;52;18 - 00;14;17;01
Brad
So I wanted AI to tell me if what, what they saw as the market trends in 2026. So if we buy a calf today, yeah, $1000 or $1400, whatever it might be, what is the market going to be like in November of 2026? I tells me that the market is going to be strong, going to do well. There's still obviously some of the key drivers are import restrictions.

00;14;17;01 - 00;14;45;03
Brad
You know, there's still bans on Canadian and Mexican and cattle imports. So that's helping keep the domestic prices high. Depends what the corn prices. But in the end it told me that based on USDA price forecast, farmers would expect to receive about 2 to 224 slaughter steers and maybe a little bit higher to 50 for slaughter animals at the at the end of the year.

00;14;45;03 - 00;15;08;04
Brad
So how does that compare with current market prices? It's about the same. About the same. So we would expect the market 16 months from now to be about the same as what it is today. And so that's how you have to figure out. So like I tried to tell a lot of farmers, we need to know what your cost of production is.

00;15;08;04 - 00;15;29;10
Brad
We need to know what everything goes into your management. So you know, you have if you're buying calves at $1,000, you need to know what your feed cost is going to be, how you're going to feed them. You know, do you put more corn silage into those diets, to help, which anecdotally maybe help liver abscesses? And we'll get into that another day.

00;15;29;10 - 00;15;54;25
Brad
But so other feed stuffs, can you cheapen the ration to get them to grow at the same? Because in my mind, this is Brad's opinion. If you were buying calves at $1,450, I don't think that's going to make any money. 16 months from now. I just don't see how it is with feed cost, labor cost. Unless you can grow those big, you know, it depends where your market is.

00;15;54;25 - 00;16;14;13
Brad
You have to really look at the market. Our animals went to Tyson and Dakota City, Nebraska. Their plant is not as big, so they can't handle the big carcasses as well, as some of the other ones. If you go to American Food Group, they can handle carcasses that are 17, 18, 2000 plus pound, steers or bulls.

00;16;14;13 - 00;16;36;19
Brad
So some of these plants can handle bigger carcasses than others. So that's a consideration as well. Where where are you going to market these animals. And can you do you have to market them at 1400 pounds or 1500 pounds max, or can you get them to 1,800 pounds? So that's one of the things you have to figure out too, is where your market is and where you can make that happen.

00;16;36;21 - 00;16;41;13
Brad
What are the key takeaways? What are the key takeaways in all of this?

00;16;41;15 - 00;16;44;01
Emily
Right. What what has Bradley really taught us today?

00;16;44;08 - 00;16;58;03
Brad
What have I taught you probably absolutely nothing except that the cattle market is crazy. People are paying a lot for fat dairy crosses, which is good because I'm going to keep generating that, as income as well for the dairy.

00;16;58;06 - 00;16;58;16
Emily
Right.

00;16;58;22 - 00;17;23;27
Brad
I think the biggest thing is know your cost of production, know your cost of production, and if you can know your cost of production, then you can decide how much you're willing to pay for these calves. And obviously, some people are going to pay a lot for them because they can make it work. If they have lots of volume and are getting them to a different market, those type of things.

00;17;23;27 - 00;17;45;21
Brad
But you really have to know what your cost is, and that will help drive what you can pay for these calves. I think if you know, in that thousand dollars range, it probably will work out. Like I said, like the research shows, maybe we be paying 50 to $75 more than what we should be. Now. That was maybe a couple years ago or last year's market conditions.

00;17;45;21 - 00;18;08;24
Brad
This year is very different. So know your cost of production and you'll be able to figure that out and determine what you should be paying for these camps. And that's all I could tell you because the cattle market is going to be crazy. It's going to be crazy for a while. There is an appetite from, cattle buyers and packers for these beef and dairy crosses.

00;18;08;24 - 00;18;32;14
Brad
They're filling lots of slots in, in in the coolers, at these plants. And like I said, it's 20% of the beef, supply chain right now. So it is just gone wild. And who would have ever predicted this in 2018, when I started crossing with Limousin at our herd that we would be seeing this, nobody predicted this.

00;18;32;14 - 00;18;39;15
Brad
So it is fascinating. It's interesting to see and I'm excited to see where the future may go with this.

00;18;39;15 - 00;19;04;21
Emily
Yeah, and I think it will, you know, as as time continues on and we can gather more information and data, and financial records and that, you know, it'll be interesting to see how different operations made these prices work or not work in their system. So, you know, this this is the beginning of this conversation, to be sure.

00;19;04;23 - 00;19;30;10
Brad
Yeah. So, we're actually going to be hosting some more beef and dairy workshops throughout the year here in Minnesota. They've they've been quite successful. And there's a lot of interest around the state. So we're going to be doing more of those and talking about some of our research at Minnesota and sharing some of the other insights, especially from the Packers, cattle buyers and other farmers who are doing this beef and dairy thing.

00;19;30;10 - 00;19;33;05
Brad
So it's exciting, exciting to see where it goes.

00;19;33;06 - 00;20;06;05
Emily
There is, yes, a lot of excitement in the industry right now, and I think that that is a perfect place to wrap this episode today. So if you have any questions, comments or scathing rebuttals about today's episode, you can email those to the Moose Room at And that you. If you'd like to learn more about our work and want to learn more about those upcoming dairy on beef programs Bradley mentioned, you can find those on our website extension Umkc Edu, thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you all next time.

00;20;06;07 - 00;20;10;23
Brad
Bye bye.