The Moos Room™

Welcome to the Moos Room. Just Brad again today. I promise Emily will come back at some point. Hopefully next month. She's been doing a lot of farm health and wellness trainings throughout the state of Minnesota, so she's been quite busy. But this is the last part of our Beef on Dairy episode. So we did the first to kind of reviewing some of the beef and dairy research that's happened, looked at a little bit on semen usage in dairy cattle.

00;01;34;22 - 00;01;59;24
Brad
Last week we talked about our study where we compared five different breeds bred to our dairy herd. What happened from growth, carcass economic standpoint. And today I wanted to talk a little bit about the genetics of them and genomic testing. So we genomic tested these animals and somebody could ask, well why would you do that. These are terminal animals.

00;01;59;26 - 00;02;32;20
Brad
Well the genomic really help them. Well in 2023 a Nio gen came out with an identity profile for beef on dairy animals. And it basically said that we could probably manage cattle for carcass weight, average daily gain predictions if we tested them when those cattle were younger. It also states that you could identify high carcass quality within their marbling predictions.

00;02;32;23 - 00;03;00;08
Brad
You could probably market cattle with their carcass performance terminal index that they have developed for these beef on dairy crosses. You also get breed verification with a percentage of beef and dairy and the breed of origin, which is interesting. We'll kind of go through those results that we found as well. And you might be able to test animals that qualify for some branded programs with this.

00;03;00;08 - 00;03;27;00
Brad
So we genotyped our 50 animals. That was in our previous project that were bred to Angus, Simmental, Limousin, Charlotte and Herford. So I sent them in to get genomic tested. It's about $17 is what the cost of the test was, and it gives you back some information based on what we found from the genomic tests. So we'll look at the report.

00;03;27;02 - 00;03;56;28
Brad
It gives you a breakdown of genetic composition of the animal, based on a percentage of beef and dairy. It lists the beef breed that makes up the largest portion of the percentage of beef in that animal. You also get some trait definitions. Now, it's probably not as many as what you get if you're genomic testing dairy animals, you're just getting back four values for predictions.

00;03;57;00 - 00;04;23;15
Brad
One is for average daily gain. So obviously it's based off of pounds of gain per day. And the identity score identifies the genetic potential for post weaning growth. It gives you a marbling score. And obviously the higher the marbling the higher the USDA quality grade. It gives you a carcass weight prediction. Obviously, the higher the hot carcass weight, the better the dressing percentage on the animal.

00;04;23;15 - 00;04;55;15
Brad
And it gives you an identity terminal index. So this index is designed to rank cattle according to their genetic potential for the terminal traits. So a higher terminal index indicates an animal with increased grid potential. So based on carcass quality data. So like I said we got the results back. And I've had these results for quite a few months, maybe a year now, and looked at them and tried to figure out what this meant.

00;04;55;15 - 00;05;18;17
Brad
And we'll maybe talk about how a farmer could use those once we're kind of done describing some of these things and, and talking about some of the, the differences that we see. Well, it is quite interesting because I look at the percentage of beef versus dairy. Obviously, some of our animals were crossbred. And so you have that to consider.

00;05;18;20 - 00;05;50;24
Brad
Some of them were beef times a Holstein cow. So you have 50% beef, 50% dairy. So there is no animal, none of the 50 that shows it is 50% beef and 50% dairy. There in wild proportions. Some of these animals I look at one. It is 82% beef and 20% dairy. The next one is 60% beef, 40% dairy.

00;05;50;26 - 00;06;17;02
Brad
There's a wide range. There are some that are close to 50% 56% beef, 44% dairy. But it's kind of all over the board. The ones that really intrigued me are those that are 87% beef and 13% dairy. That's kind of wild and crazy in in my viewpoint, but it maybe is the nature of the cross breads that we have in our herd.

00;06;17;04 - 00;06;38;00
Brad
It's maybe picking up a little bit more of a beef influence on those animals, because we just don't have the genotype test of some of the breeds, some of the French breeds or European breeds that I've used in our dairy herd. So it's really hard to determine some of these. So it's not necessarily the fault of, say, the company that's genotyping.

00;06;38;00 - 00;07;05;01
Brad
It's probably more my fault because I'm using wild and exotic breeds that people might not use. Well, they're not really exotic to me. They are great dairy cattle and produce quite well, but it is interesting to see what the percentage of those are. And maybe in a future episode. I've genotyped well over a thousand of our crossbred cows and we can kind of look at what what we see there to.

00;07;05;04 - 00;07;31;19
Brad
Anyways, we get back to this. So it talks about you have a primary dairy breed of origin and a primary beef breed of origin. Well, it's it's picking up either Holstein or Jersey in some of our dairy breed of origins. Ones that are Holstein are picking up the cross breads as well. Now the interesting primary beef breed of origin, it picks up for the most part, most of them.

00;07;31;27 - 00;08;02;10
Brad
And they're correct a lot. It's picking up Angus, obviously that the Angus ones, some it's not picking up as it's not recorded. Even though they may be an Angus sire. Herford to Limousin. It's it's not picking up what breed they may be sired by. For the most part I think they're all correct. Some it's showing up as. So I have a few Charlotte crosses and they're showing up as sired by either Limousin or Galva.

00;08;02;12 - 00;08;28;05
Brad
It's picking up Galva in a lot of these Charlotte crosses, which is interesting. So sometimes you, you get back the stuff and, and if you look at the neogen information, it will tell you that the breeds that they are supported are Angus, Brahma, Galva, Herford, Limousin, Red Angus, Shorthorn, Simmental and Wagyu. So it does not support Charlotte crosses.

00;08;28;07 - 00;08;58;26
Brad
They're coming up as something else. In our case they're coming up at CLV. But for the most part it's giving you a correct primary breed of origin. Now we got back a bunch of of the values. So the average daily gain, the marbling carcass weight and the terminal index. So it's basically telling us if we look at an eight average daily gain value, they range from one to 7 or 8 in our scale.

00;08;58;29 - 00;09;26;29
Brad
Well what does it tell us if we want to compare the breeds that we have looked at before from an average daily gain perspective, the Angus was the highest at seven, the Charlotte was the lowest at three, and the other breeds were intermediate Herford five, Simmental 5.5 and Limousin was six. But I found that it was interesting because it's not picking up the growth from the Charlotte, and that's because that breed is not supported in in the identity profile.

00;09;27;01 - 00;09;45;06
Brad
So it's it's not the fault of anything really. It's just you have to take that into consideration. If you're using other breeds that it's not going to show up. So even though the Charlotte was the best growth rate for our animals, it's the lowest from the identity profile, just because that breed is not supported. But what about marbling?

00;09;45;06 - 00;10;15;25
Brad
Marbling kind of follows the same aspect. Angus was the highest, so six for a marbling value and they range again from 1 to 7. So Angus was the the top. Sharla and Hurford and Limousin were all around three and Simmental was 4.3. So you had Angus first, Simmental second and the other breeds in the middle, which is interesting because I can see it on the the Limousin and the Sharla and probably the Hurford as well.

00;10;15;25 - 00;10;38;00
Brad
So the the marbling is maybe giving a better indication of what breeds might marvel better in a beef on dairy scenario. And it's picking up the Angus. And we know that based on our discussion last week, that the marbling was the best for the Angus ones. Well, what about hot carcass weight? We know hot carcass weight was quite different in all of the breeds.

00;10;38;00 - 00;11;12;03
Brad
The Charles had the highest carcass weight in our study. But that's not what this says. And again, it goes back to the beef breeds that are supported in this test. Angus it picked out was the top 7.2 from a hot carcass weight identity score basis. Sharla was the lowest 4.5. So we know that that breeds not supported. So it's not really getting good predictions on a Charlotte cross because we know that that had the highest carcass weight and the Herford, the Limousin were in about 5.5 and the seven tall 6.4.

00;11;12;06 - 00;11;39;28
Brad
So it's doing a really good job of picking up Angus and Simmental breeds for hot carcass weight. So if we look at the the terminal index that that we got from Neogen and basically that says what animals could do the best on the grid, well, there's no surprise Angus shows up as first six was the value that they got for Angus.

00;11;40;00 - 00;12;03;24
Brad
But it's interesting. Charlotte Herford and Limousin were all around 4.8 to 5, so probably picking up the correct values there from a terminal index. Who's going to do the best on a on the grid? We know Angus has a lot more marbling than Charlie Limousin or Hereford, and it picks up the Simmental at 5.6. So just behind the Angus.

00;12;03;27 - 00;12;39;13
Brad
So there was maybe some pretty good indication that it's picking up pretty good predictions for terminal index for Angus and Simmental. Maybe not so much the other breeds. So then I went and did a few comparisons based on the identity scores to see well, how they matched up with what we really saw as we raised these cattle. So if I compared the average daily gain that we observed in our study compared to the average daily gain from the identity scores, it doesn't really show much.

00;12;39;16 - 00;13;07;12
Brad
The correlation is 0.12, which means there's not really a big association with average daily gain in the animal versus the prediction that we got from identity. So the average daily gain maybe doesn't show out really well. And that's because we have all those Charlotte animals in there. And they were predicted low based on identity. And they were the highest based on our average daily gain.

00;13;07;14 - 00;13;34;17
Brad
Now marbling gives you a pretty good indication. The correlation is almost 0.5. So it's there is a definite association between the marbling identity score and what we saw marbling on on the rail for our steers. If you look at carcass weight, about the same as what we saw for average daily gain here, it's point two as a correlation.

00;13;34;19 - 00;13;59;02
Brad
Again, we have the Charlotte animals in there. So that could be distorting the values a little bit, but maybe not as accurate. But what do we actually do with this data and how might this work. And then I'll talk about some. There's a little bit of Siar differences that we saw. And I think this data can help. If you have obviously certain breeds it does well for Angus and Simmental.

00;13;59;02 - 00;14;24;22
Brad
In our situation, the Charlotte crosses, it didn't really have good genomic predictions on them because that was breed was not supported in the identity profile, but overall it maybe gave us a good picture. The data kind of matched up a little bit from the genomic test to what we saw in growth and carcass traits in these animals. So how how could a farmer use this?

00;14;24;22 - 00;14;59;14
Brad
And why might you spend money to genomic test a terminal animal? Well, that's a good question. I think what could happen is that you would genomic test these animals at birth, and then you could probably manage those animals relative to their genetic potential during the feeding period. So if you got a genomic test at birth or within a few months after birth, then you could look at these identity scores and then manage them or sort them into different pens.

00;14;59;15 - 00;15;34;05
Brad
You could sort the high terminal index animals and feed them differently than the bottom terminal index animals. You're probably going to get less revenue for those animals that are in the bottom of the terminal index, but you may be able to feed them a little bit differently. So the cost of feeding those is different. Now, if you have the highest animals and you sort the highest terminal index animals off, you could feed them differently, maybe push them a little bit more to get higher marbling and make more money on the grid.

00;15;34;07 - 00;16;03;06
Brad
Based on this genomic test, you could invest in different feedstuffs and improve feeding management. Based on this genomic test, you could sort animals, feed them differently. That's where I see this happening. Is it going to be for everybody? Probably not. You have to be able to say, okay, does the $17 investment pay off in the end when I get my check based on our carcass characteristics?

00;16;03;09 - 00;16;26;24
Brad
So that's where I see this happening, is really only about sorting those animals, getting that data from the beginning and being able to manage those animals to their genetic potential during the feeding period. That's really where it's going to come in. And I've talked with some other people, and that's kind of what we think where that might happen as well.

00;16;26;26 - 00;16;52;23
Brad
So it is interesting to see this and try and figure out how you can use a genomic test on a terminal animal like this. Now it's interesting kind of in the last little blip here, we have as you know, I'm a quantitative geneticist by training, so I'm very interested in sires and breeds and and you name it, even though I do a lot more research in, in dairy and beef.

00;16;52;28 - 00;17;22;00
Brad
But we found some big differences in our animals. I will tell you that quite a bit of difference in sires. So if you look at the actual Angus sires that we used in our study, there was three bulls that we had used and they were all fairly consistent from a carcass weight perspective. The marbling scores were a little bit different.

00;17;22;03 - 00;17;48;14
Brad
One bull didn't have as high of marbling, but he had less back fat and differences to slaughter were much different. Actually, the one Angus bull that did the best from a carcass weight perspective. Ribeye area. Great marbling. Had less days to slaughter. Now we only used one Herford bolt. That's all that was really available for us, so it's hard to determine whether there was any sire differences there.

00;17;48;17 - 00;18;12;17
Brad
But the desire that we used was actually pretty good. Maybe not quite as high of marbling as what I'd like to see, but the rib eyes were 12 inch rib eyes, quite a bit of back fat, 0.7. So nothing to compare to, but it was interesting to look at that, sire. And the reason we use that sire and I have used him again is because he's great for fertility in our dairy herd.

00;18;12;17 - 00;18;42;14
Brad
He gets cows pregnant, the Simmental. So we use 370 bulls. Two of them were semi Angus crosses and one was a purebred Simmental. Guess which ones did the best? Some Angus crosses the semi Angus crosses had higher carcass weights, probably over 100 pounds different than the purebred Simmental ones, although one of the semi Angus bulls didn't have as high of marbling score as what the purebred Simmental or the other semi Angus bull.

00;18;42;14 - 00;19;09;15
Brad
So it really comes down to there are even sire differences now. Yes, we have small numbers here and just a few sires, but it's interesting to see the sire differences even on a small number of animals. So Charlie actually really consistent. All of the Charlie sires, we had three of them. They were all relatively within a couple pounds of 880 carcass weight marbling, about the same one.

00;19;09;15 - 00;19;35;20
Brad
Charlie Bull had a little bit higher marbling score than the others, but man, those three Charlie sires were pretty consistent with each other. Limousin. We used they were all limb flex bulls. So Limousin, Angus Cross and two of the bulls were similar for carcass weight, one of them actually terrible for marbling, terrible for marbling, and a really small rib eye.

00;19;35;22 - 00;20;00;28
Brad
And we probably had more steers from him than some of the other bulls. If we can see the carcass data before we send them there, we would maybe say we shouldn't use some of these bulls and I wouldn't use this particular bull. Again, just not enough marbling actually was the lowest marbling bull of any of the bulls that we used in the study.

00;20;00;28 - 00;20;23;14
Brad
Totally low, for this Limousin. And that's maybe why some of our Limousin crosses went select because differences in sires. So that's one of the big things we need to think about too is sires and how we select the bulls. I'll tell you, I select the beef bulls that we use in our herd, and I pick them based on calving ease.

00;20;23;16 - 00;20;45;04
Brad
So I don't want calving problems in our dairy cattle. So I pick good calving east sires and then I pick on ribeye area. That's really the only two ways that I pick these beef bulls I don't select for growth rate. I don't select for anything else. Calving ease and rib eye area. Now some of them do well, some do not do well.

00;20;45;12 - 00;21;08;19
Brad
But I think that's one thing that we need to think about. Is there are big sire differences in within breeds for using on beef and dairy crosses, and I think that's important to know. I think it's one thing that the industry doesn't talk enough about is sire differences. We see sire differences in a dairy cow herd. Why wouldn't we expect to see that on beef, on dairy crosses?

00;21;08;26 - 00;21;31;09
Brad
So pick good bulls, select bulls that you want to use what you think might work for a feedlot perspective. That's why I pick rib eye area. Maybe I should be picking on some other things. It'd be interesting to know people's thoughts, but that's how I'm picking and I think, you know, thinking like a dairy farmer. I'm going to pick cabbages first.

00;21;31;11 - 00;21;58;26
Brad
We don't want calving problems. So I hope you learned a little bit today about genomics and genetics and maybe a little bit on sire differences, and to see if maybe there is potential for genomic testing these beef on dairy crosses. If you can use them from your management perspective, be able to feed them differently and maybe make some more money based on their profiles.

00;21;59;03 - 00;22;22;11
Brad
Obviously, it doesn't work for all of the breeds. Member Charlie. Maybe not quite as good, but there may be potential for this into the future in using it for terminal animals. So with that, I hope you learned a little bit today about genomics and genetics of these beef and dairy crosses. And we're going to end there with our three part series, and we'll move on to other subjects in the future.

00;22;22;11 - 00;22;45;05
Brad
But if you have any questions, comments or scathing rebuttals, feel free to email us at the Moos room. That's tag moss our Om at Umkc Edu and find us on the web. University of Minnesota Livestock Extension. So thanks for listening. Bye.