The Moos Room™

[music]
[cow moos]
Joe Armstrong: Welcome to the Moos Room, everybody. Dr. Joe Armstrong here, Dr. Bradley J. Heins here, and Dr. Isaac Salfer here as well. We have a guest, Noah Emily, today which is sad but it's the way it is. At least we found a beautiful replacement in Isaac Salfer today. How are you doing Isaac?
Isaac Salfer: This might be the first time I've been called beautiful in my life, Joe, so thank you for that nice compliment.
Joe: Today the goal is to get to know Isaac. Isaac, this is always a weird deal. We had the same thing when we had Isaac Haagen on. We're recording and we're actually in the same building but we're recording online so it's always weird to know that Isaac's just a few doors down and we�re talking to each other through a computer but that's the way it works best. Isaac's here at the university. He is a professor that has a teaching and a research role. He's got a lot of interesting research on the dairy side when it comes to nutrition and everything else. The goal today is to get to know Isaac, and we'll let Bradley talk every once in a while.
Isaac: As little as possible.
Bradley Heins: I only get to talk when we talk about favorite beef and dairy breeds and Isaac's a new professor so he has to give the right answers, right?
Joe: I think that's how it goes.
Isaac: Yes, I'm going to lose my tenure vote because I'm going to say Brown Swiss is my favorite dairy breed, is that what you're implying, Brad?
Joe: Oh, I knew you were going to say that as your favorite. That's predictable.
Isaac: That was obvious. The beef one might be-- I'm going to throw you guys for a loop on the beef one, I think.
Joe: Confirm, officially asking, Isaac, what is your favorite dairy breed?
Isaac: Yes, I can confirm. I grew up-- for those people listening that don't know, I didn't grow up on a milking operating dairy farm but I grew up on, I guess, a hobby farm where I owned my own herd of registered Brown Swiss cows that we bred and showed and raised and things like that. Then when they lactated we sent them off to some other farms. Naturally, I have to say Brown Swiss is my favorite breed. They are gloriously stubborn, they are a pain in the butt, they love to not get pregnant, they love to get hemorrhagic bowel syndrome but despite all those flaws, they're wonderful cows to raise and show and all that stuff.
Bradley: We will let Brown Swiss slide today. Somebody caught me in a weak moment out here and we have about four Brown Swiss-sired calves so we�ll let that slide today.
Isaac: I'm very happy to hear that you got a couple of Brown Swiss crosses out there in Morris.
Joe: We are mostly concerned about Holstein so as long as it's not about four Holstein, we're going to be okay. Although it is getting a little tight. Holsteins are at 23, Jerseys at 17, Brown Swiss now at 10, up into the double digits. Montb�liarde at three. Dutch Belted at three. Guernsey at three, with a shout out to Taffy. Normande at two. Milking Shorthorn at one, and Ayrshire at one. Climbing up the leaderboard, I don't like it but still not Holstein so we're okay.
Isaac: We got to get some more Swiss people on the podcast you guys.
Joe: Got it. If you find them, send them our way and we'll have them on. It might be pretty rare. On the beef side, throws for a loop, what is your favorite breed of beef cow?
Isaac: Well, so I was originally going to say Red Angus because my uncle's got a Red Angus herd out in Eastern South Dakota but I have an even better answer than that which is miniature Scottish Highlander because another uncle that lives close to where I grew up had two miniature Scottish Highlanders at one point. He used to have an exotic animal ranch where one week he'd have camels and the next week he�d have llamas and all sorts of stuff. He had Miniature Highlanders and I remember one morning, this was while I was a junior in high school, I got to miss the entire morning of my high school classes because the miniature Scottish Highlanders got out and we were chasing them all around the county trying to get them in there.
Those things are, man, regular Scottish Highlanders are already a pain in the butt but the smaller the cow gets, the bigger the attitude. They were just such a pain in the butt to get in the trailer and haul back to his farm. That would be my favorite answer because they got me out of a morning of high school class.
Joe: That's a good answer I can't say anything about it.
Bradley: Exactly, you got the story to go with it so we can't criticize that one at all.
Joe: Not at all. The total is Black Angus at 16. Herefords at 10. Black Baldy is at 5. Scottish Highlander, the big version, at 4. Red Angus at three. Shorthorn at three. Charolais at three. Belted Galloway at two. Brahman at two. All with one, Stabilizer, Gelvieh, [unintelligible 00:04:54] Nelore, Jersey, Normande, Belgian Blue, Brangus, Piedmontese, White Park and now miniature Scottish Highlanders. That's going to be fun to say for a while. I'm glad that we get to take that on the end. Down to business, Isaac, I think briefly tell us your journey and how you ended up at the University of Minnesota quick.
Isaac: Sounds good. I already somewhat alluded to growing up having my own small register herd of Browns so let's also say a lot of my interest in dairy was cultivated by my father who for, I don't know, 25-plus years has been an Extension agent at the University of Minnesota, Extension dairy specialist. Some people listening on the podcast might know him, Jim Salfer. He helped cultivate my interest in dairy and then growing up, we raised the registered Brown Swiss as I mentioned. I was also heavily involved in 4-H and FFA and dairy judging and the Junior Holstein Association, the Junior Brown Swiss Association, those kind of activities.
That was really where my interest in dairy started. I came to the University of Minnesota for undergraduate majoring in Animal Science focusing on dairy production. I did start pre-vet so I will say. I did start pre-vet and I was actually admitted into the vet task program which is you can get admitted to your freshman year of undergrad and have a spot held for you in grad school. Sorry to tell you this Joe but over my first couple years of undergrad after shadowing some vets and taking some classes, I became more interested in going to graduate school than I did going to vet school.
Joe: [laughs] It�s okay. Through our time as vet students, pre-vet, all of it, we were told repeatedly by every veterinarian in practice, "Don't do it." I'm convinced that every good veterinarian was told, "Don't do it," multiple times and we did it anyway. We have no qualms with anybody that saw the light and didn't do it.
Isaac: I always had it in the back of my mind because my dad worked a lot with the faculty of the University of Minnesota. My mom tells me that even when I was in sixth, seventh, eighth grade when people asked what I wanted to do as a living, I said, "Oh, I think it'd be really fun to be a professor like all those professors that dad works with." I always had in the back of my head that it would be really fun to go to graduate school and maybe pursue eventually becoming a professor at a university someday. Kind of cool that it worked out that way. I did University of Arizona after doing undergrad, stayed and did a master's here with Dr. Marshall Stern.
Another little fun tidbit is that Marshall is now in the phase of retirement and living in Florida so I got to move into his office. Still surreal every day going into my office and being like, "That's Marshall's office, that�s not my office." I did my PhD out at Penn State University, I didn't want to become too academically inbred, I wanted to get a little different experience, see different parts of the country and so I ended up going out to Penn State. That's actually where I ended up meeting my wife who was a faculty member in the department in poultry production. It's also where I met Isaac Haagen, who I know was on this podcast a few months ago who is also a good friend of mine who did his PhD at Penn State as well.
Penn State was a really rewarding experience both from developing, getting to work with really good mentor and doing cool research but also met a lot of good friends there too that I wouldn't have met necessarily.
Joe: You made it back here which is the important piece. You made it back to the correct university, you didn't stay at Penn State. What was behind that? Well, and specifically, how did you convince your wife to come to Minnesota instead?
Isaac: That's probably the hardest part. It was always my goal to come back here, to be honest. That was actually part of my impetus for going to another university too because I was like, "Well, hopefully, I got a PhD somewhere else, I can go back to Minnesota." I wasn't smart like Brad and just did all my degrees in the same place and then got hired at the University of Minnesota. I was like, "Well, I'm not as smart as Brad so I got to diversify." Coming back to the University of Minnesota, I actually did make a brief pitstop at South Dakota State right after I graduated so a month after I defended my PhD, I started at South Dakota State.
I stayed there for a year and a half and then this position opened up and I was able to get this job. The question you asked about how did I convince my wife to move to Minnesota, I still don't know if she's convinced that she wants to live in Minnesota. I think it's a matter of every winter I just have to tell her that, "Oh, this is one of the bad winters," and she halfways believes me, and then yes, anyway.
Joe: That makes sense. I'm glad that so far you've able to convince her because we're glad to have you here. Let's get into your lab. You already talked about how surreal it is being in your old advisor's office, you've got his old lab too. You're working on very different things. Tell us the overview, the goal of your lab. What are you trying to find out?
Isaac: The answer I always give when people ask is, I'm doing too much or I'm doing too many different things, which I do have a-- I'm a type of person who's interested in a lot of different things, who gets excited about a lot of different ideas. Naturally, my research program has expanded out to do research on a lot of different topics. In my PhD at Penn State, the research that I started working or I did for my PhD dissertation was all related to circadian rhythms and metabolism.
Just as a little bit of an introduction in the background, circadian rhythms are your internal daily clock that schedules when you're hungry and when you want to go to bed, and all these things. They actually have a lot of really interesting applications for metabolism, and there's not a lot known about how they impact dairy cows and dairy cow nutrition. One area that I'm researching is trying to better understand how these circadian rhythms affect the metabolism of cows, and ultimately with the goal of trying to improve heat efficiencies.
If these clocks are operating at a certain time of day, how can we optimally manage cows to meet that internal clock that they have. That's probably the biggest component of the research that I'm working on. A large component of my research is focusing on this circadian aspect, circadian nutrition type stuff within dairy cows.
Joe: Before we move on to letting you get the other stuff you're interested in, one of the big clarifying questions that always comes up, and I want to get your take on it when we're talking about circadian rhythms, is the difference between circadian rhythms and seasonal rhythms. If you could talk to that for just a second. I think that's a question that I get quite often.
Isaac: Yes, that's a great question. That is a vocabulary thing that I get asked a lot as well. Circadian rhythms. Circadian, if we get into the Latin nitty gritty of it, circadian means about a day in Latin. Circadian rhythm is really referring to a 24-hour rhythm within a day, a seasonal rhythm, or there's a term called circannual rhythm, or sometimes I'll use the term annual rhythm, just annual, not circannual, that refers to a rhythm that goes across a year.
Cows do have both circadian rhythms where they have certain responses including milk production that change within a day. They also have this annual rhythm or seasonal rhythm where you have a change across the entire year where you have typically milk production is highest in April, May and lowest in September, October. You have different rhythms for fat percent and protein percent and things like that too. Is that clear? Did that make sense?
Joe: Yes, that made total sense and I'm glad that we got to that right away. Circadian rhythms, seasonal rhythms, metabolism, nutrition, all those, how they interact, that's one piece. What else are you working on?
Isaac: I'm also working a lot on sustainability I would say, and different aspects of how to improve feed efficiency and sustainability of livestock systems. I think holistically, if we look at all the research I'm doing, really what I'm trying to do, and this is probably true with most people that are doing nutrition research in cattle, we're trying to improve feed efficiency of cows, figure out what strategies to get more milk and more milk fat and protein out of less feed.
Within that realm, we're also looking a lot at how to improve nitrogen use efficiency. One of the advantage of cows is that they can consume non-protein nitrogen, but they're not super efficient at that. How do we improve their ability to utilize nitrogen that's included within feed, and then also how do we improve their energetic efficiency? Some of that work we're doing, I'm actually collaborating with Brad on some stuff looking at-- actually that one is more genetic. It's looking at the impact of genetics on methane emissions and energetic efficiency in cows. We're also doing some other work with different feed additives and how those can improve energetic efficiency too. That's a very broad piece and it goes in a lot of different directions.
One of the reasons I did that is that that's a little bit more applied type research. I can do a lot more studies that will have a direct impact on dairy producers where I can test the effect of a specific feed additive or a specific type of feeding strategy on energetic efficiency and nitrogen efficiency in cows. We always measure milk production too, there's always that applied component of how does it affect how productive the cows are at the end of the day too.
Joe: If you're more efficient, it's better for everyone, the farmer, the environment, economics overall. Great. One of the questions I have for you, Isaac, is when we talk sustainability, we always talk efficiency and we're always talking feed efficiency, and I feel like we've gotten so good with that from a management standpoint, and I'm glad to hear you're addressing it from the genetic side of things as well. Are we going to run out of ways to find more efficiency eventually and have to pivot and do something else?
Isaac: That's a great existential-type question, Joe. I think about that a lot because of course, it's always a question, are we eventually going to run ourselves out of a job? I at least think for my career and for a good long period of time, there's always ways to improve efficiency of cows. One thing I always think about to make myself feel better about this question is currently what's-- maybe you guys both know the answer to this, I know probably relative. What's the currently the highest-producing cow in the country? She made 79,000 pounds of milk in a single year, something like that.
If you would've told somebody in 1980 that the highest-producing cow was going to make 79,000 pounds of milk, that would be absolutely absurd. If you track average milk production and you track these genetic extremes of milk production over time, it seems like we still have potential to make more milk. We still have potential to have cows that are more efficient. I guess you can't always say just because they're making more milk, they're more efficient, but it tends to be the more they produce.
Typically the more milk they produce, the more efficient they end up becoming. I guess that's the way that I look at it is that I think we still are seeing trends towards improvements in the maximum potential of cows. I think there's still opportunities there. The other thing is I think the questions and the challenges continue to change. As we solve certain problems, other problems come up. Oftentimes, I think when we solve problems, we create new problems in the process of solving those problems too. I think that's maybe the way that we can keep thinking that we'll always have job security and there'll always be new problems to address.
Joe: We tend to focus on taking the top higher. How far can we push the ceiling? That's fun. I think it's probably the-- I don't know the right word, the sexier area of research, if research can be sexy, but the bottom up has a huge impact rather than the top higher. I think that is not going to go away. There's always dairies and management styles that need help bringing the bottom up to raise the average rather than taking the top higher. That's fun for me to think about because I think it's more of a challenge to do that. I like that aspect. I don't know how you feel about that. I don't know if your research is addressing that in any way. Brad can comment on this too since you guys are working together on these things.
Isaac: That's a good question. Again, philosophical and-- I guess, what I tell myself, my research is for all producers. I think the research strategies that I try to do I guess I don't necessarily think about them as just addressing those well-managed herds versus the low-managed herds. Ideally, what I'm trying to do is develop new research strategies that change the way we think about how we feed cows for all feeding types. I'm doing a lot of basic fundamental research that's hopefully going to lead to more applied feeding strategies down the line too. I think your point is really good. A lot of what I think about too is, can we shift the bell curve?
I think about the performance of herds is always going to be in some shape of bell curve, where you have the average, you have the really elite herds on one side, the really or the less elite or the poorer herds on one side. If you can shift the entire median or you can shift the entire bell curve of herds, the lower herds go up while the upper herds go up altogether. I do think in our role, in Extension, in universities, we do have a large obligation to help, particularly the producers that don't have those resources of--
Some of the larger herds that are really well managed already have a lot of industry consultants that can help them. I think a university that we have the unique position to help some of those herds that maybe don't even know about some of those available resources from industry and things like that. Those are two different topics, but I think maybe different ways to look at that question.
Joe: That's perfect. Bradley?
Bradley: I can always debate. The question is, do we need to get more milk out of cows and is that a way to get efficient? We seem to be able to produce too much milk now, milk prices are lower. We have a flood of milk. Some farms in Minnesota are dumping milk for various reasons. I'm not sure that efficiency is all about trying to increase milk production, but that's me. I think efficiency includes many different ways and some of it-- maybe actually Isaac and I'll probably be exploring what he talked about, looking at methane efficiency and using nutritional aspects to improve greenhouse gas efficiency, feed efficiency of cows, probably with the same amount of milk production or at least trying to--
I don't know, it's one of those things, of course, you want more milk because you get paid more for it. In some sense, we're always our own worst enemies because when milk price is high, then we want to milk as many cows as possible. I have that problem too here at Morris. It's like, "Oh, milk price is up, let's milk more cows." That might not be always the good thing, but I think efficiency is many different things.
Isaac: That's true. As a nutritionist, I tend to think very heavily and very focused on feed efficiency, but there are a lot of societal aspects and different aspects of society. One area I think about sustainability that we don't really talk about is the human capital side of sustainability. Without getting controversial, I think that goes to your point that if cows make more milk, then you need fewer cows. If you need fewer cows, then you need fewer dairy farmers. Especially as herds get bigger, which they continue to go, you have fewer dairy farmers. Well, that's fewer small businesses that exist.
I don't think this is 100% true, but I think there's a lot of value for-- one of the great things about being a farmer is owning your own small business. You're having the ability to control your own destiny in that sense. I think as our cows become more productive and our industry becomes more integrated, we lose some of that. Taking nothing away from large producers, I think it's just the way the economy works. The good people do well, and their herds grow, and they improve, but it is, I guess, the double-edged sword of that. Fewer people then get the opportunity to own a farm.
Then I think about that in terms of the aspect of, well then there's-- so I have a teaching appointment. A lot of the kids that get an animal science degree focused on dairy science come from smaller herds because they're more involved in the day-to-day activity of the farm and whatnot. Then we have fewer of those kids coming to the university, and it has these other changes. Whether those are good or bad, I'm not saying one way or another, but I think these are things to think about with that question, too.
Joe: One of the things that we talk about every once in a while with Bradley is the challenge of grad students and how many he has. There's just always more. As he gets more successful, it comes with the added responsibility of more students, and that's good and bad. How are you handling that piece of the job, Isaac?
Isaac: That's a great question. I think one of the things that has been challenging for me is that I'm still relatively new on the job. I've only been at the University of Minnesota for two and a half years. It's been less than five years since I was a graduate student myself. I ended up through somewhat my own-- that's 100% my own doing, but just somewhat because of circumstance ended up getting a really big lab really quick. I have five graduate students already and I've only been here two and a half years.
I would say one of the challenges that I've experienced is that I didn't get the liberty of screwing up on only one grad student. I had to screw up being an advisor on multiple students at the same time because I had so many and was still figuring out organizational systems and best ways to advise students and things like that early on. I think that was a challenge. I'm really lucky. I have a lot of grad students, and I don't know if I'm always the best advisor, or at least I'm still learning how to be the best advisor I can be.
One of the things I've been very lucky is that I've had really good students. Most of the students I have now are very independent and very curious and work really hard. Another thing I'll say is that the type of research we do in my lab, because a lot of it we're collecting a lot of samples from cows, fundamental metabolism work, the circadian stuff requires samples to be collected at all hours of the night on a regular basis.
I'll also say I put my grad students through a lot. I make them do a lot of work just because of the nature of our research. I'll say they've all really done a good job of stepping up to that challenge, too. I'll say, if anything, the problem is me, that I took a lot of responsibility in advising a lot of grad students before I really had much practice actually being an advisor.
Joe: Five students is plenty. That is a lot of work but that means also you can get a lot done, especially if they're good students and they work hard. That just means that a lot's getting done, which is good. Brad, do you have any high-level questions that you think of for our nutritionist?
Bradley: Here's a good question. Do you think there is any difference in feed efficiency or efficiency between breeds? We always hear about this all the time that Jerseys are better in Holsteins for feed efficiency, which they are, of course. Is there something there, and maybe-- I know you were at SDSU, and for just a year, they had a herd of brown Swiss out there. I don't know if you did anything with the Brown Swiss animals out there. Is there any difference in efficiency by breeds, or do we need to do more work on that?
Isaac: I think we definitely need to do more work on it before we can actually answer that question with any authority, I guess, or with any truth. I think we can speculate. I go back to one of the professors at Penn State who was a genetics professor. We had a class period where basically we just discussed this question, and it wasn't really research-based. Again, there wasn't a lot of actually research done on this, but we just did some calculations where we looked at feed intake, versus milk production, versus body weight, versus nutrient partitioning stuff, comparing specifically Jerseys versus Holsteins.
The conclusion in that class was you couldn't really say there was a difference. It wasn't necessarily that there was or wasn't a difference, but you couldn't really make the argument that there was a difference. I would have to think part of the challenge with feed efficiency is a lot of it depends upon what your measure is to. The easiest way to measure feed efficiency is just pounds of milk versus pounds of feed. Is that really feed efficiency? You need a certain amount energy deposited as fat that stays in the cow so that they're healthy. You need energy for the immune system, and you need energy for muscle growth so they don't have wasting disease and stuff like that. I think that's one of the challenges with answering that.
I would suspect there would probably be a breed difference, and I don't want to speculate what it would be. I'd suspect that there would be some genetic-- a lot of the research they've been doing with residual feed intake and stuff, and I know that's a whole another rabbit hole. Maybe another podcast we can get and talk about specifically residual feed intake if you haven't done that already. There does seem to be some genetic effects on residual feed intake as a measure of feed efficiency. We need more information, I guess, is the very short way of answering that.
Bradley: I agree. I think that you had a good point that efficiency depends on how you measure it.
Isaac: I will say, since you were trying to get me to say Jerseys were superior, I do really like Jerseys. I'm not trying to avoid saying that I like Jerseys. I'm a big fan of Jerseys. I'm a big fan of Holsteins. I'm a big fan of [unintelligible 00:26:59]. I don't really have super big favorites when it comes to breeds. I like crossbreds, too. I'm not afraid to say that I like crossbreds, too.
Joe: As you bring up crossbreds because that came to my mind right away when we're talking efficiency and breeds. I always jump back and forth between the dairy and the beef side. There's things to learn from both that the other system can use. On the beef side, we talk a ton about uniformity. Regardless of the fact that our cows may be genetically different, we want to see uniformity and body condition in size and just about everything.
Not only because you get a calf lot that's worth more when they look identical but also because you can make targeted nutrition decisions. I don't feel like we talk about that as much on the dairy side. We skirt around it when we talk about body condition during certain times of lactation or gestation and all this other stuff, but we never just really come out and say, "I want all my cows to look the same." Which is really hard to do on a crossbred operation.
Isaac: That's true. In my experience, the herds that I hear talked about more in growing heifer pens. Some of the larger herds I've been to and talking to nutritionists and things like that when they're looking at heifer growth and heifer management, I think there's a lot of talk about making sure that your heifers are really uniform, they're coming in-- you have nice uniform sizes of pens that affects the way that you feed them and things like that.
With cows, I have heard some nutritionists that I've gone on ride-alongs with and stuff like that, that will make comments about like, "Oh, I really appreciate that this herd, you look across the pen of cows, and they're all the same height. They're all about the same body condition score for this high lactating cow pen," or things like that.
I don't think industry-wide it's really something that we talk about about. I think there would be opportunities to definitely talk about it a lot more because I think from a management standpoint, uniformity is the ticket. I think it's really important to have cows that are a similar group of cows because then you can manage them the same and more or less have the same results.
Joe: We can talk all day about this topic, and we can talk about how it applies to a pasture-based herd where we're talking about trying to figure out how much everyone's eating on a pasture setting, whole nother game. Brad, maybe this is something that we've talked about before, but I can't remember, if you wanted to get actual feed intakes on a pasture-based herd, do you even have a way to do that?
Bradley: There are ways to do it. It's complicated. You can do before and after grazing. You can use internal markers, chromic oxide, titanium oxide, but it's never perfect. It's never perfect on those. It's more difficult to get true intake with a pasture-based animal than it is with one in confinement.
Isaac: That's probably one of the biggest challenges that dairy nutritionists like myself get scared away from doing dairy research is that we're very much taught in grad school, you've got to control everything. Especially, you've got to know intake on all of those cows that you're looking at because otherwise, how do you measure performance and nutrient use efficiency, and things like that? I commend Brad, I guess, is my point. I commend Brad for being adventurous and doing grazing research and being willing to deal with these difficult methods to try to control for intake and things like that.
Bradley: Yes, it's not easy. Not easy.
Joe: I'm a little selfish in asking, right, because again, I'm taking things to the beef side. I want to know because I think there's a lot of areas that are unexplored when we talk about land use and things like that, and that all comes back to nutrient usage and grazing and how that all goes down. You can do it on a group level, but on an individual cow level, to make improvements for the group, it'd be really difficult to do. All right, we have strayed quite a ways from the original purpose of the episode, so I think that's a sign that it's time to wrap it up. Thank you, Isaac, for being here. We'll have you on in the future to get into some of the specifics of the things you mentioned today and what you're studying, so we really appreciate you being here.
Isaac: Well, sounds good. Thanks for having me on. As you saw, you can tell my brain does not go in linear directions which is why our podcast went from one side to the other side in a zigzag pattern, but I thought it was a really fun discussion as always whenever I talk to you guys. I really appreciate you having me on. I've been wanting to get on the Moos Room for a while. I'm glad I finally got the chance to do it.
Joe: Yes, exactly. We're glad you could make it, and we'll do it again soon. All out there listening, have comments, questions, or scathing rebuttals, I will be happy to forward them to Isaac or walk them down to his office. Please email those to themoosroom@umn.edu. That's T-H-E-M-O-O-S-R-O-O-M@umn.edu. Catch us on Twitter @UMNMoosroom and @UMNFarmSafety. Catch Bradley on Instagram @umnwcrocdairy. Thank you everybody for listening. We'll catch you next week. Bye.
Bradley: Bye.
[00:32:17] [END OF AUDIO]
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