The Moos Room™

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Joe: Welcome to The Moos Room, everybody. This is Dr. Joe Armstrong. Thank you for joining us. This is a special episode. We wanted to revisit our topic of mental health. We already did an episode on mental health in Episode 5, so I encourage you to go back and listen to that. That has some or more of the basics and the questions that Brad and I had for Emily. Today, we're diving in a little deeper. We want to keep this conversation going, keep this relevant with the goal of making it so that people feel more and more comfortable talking about this subject.
Emily was willing to share some personal stories and a lot of her experience with mental health and mental illness. Big thank you for her, for willing to be so open about it. There was nothing here that I was willing to cut. It got a little long on us today, but there's tons of great information. The big message is that we want everyone to be there for each other. Reach out, find the courage to have this conversation, and if you need anything at all, reach out to us, themoosroom@umn.edu. Please enjoy the episode. Thank you again for listening.
All right. Welcome to The Moos Room, everybody. We are here just the OG3 again, and we have somewhat of a bonus episode where we're talking about mental health. We did this earlier in Episode 5, but we got to come back to it, way too important, and May is Mental Health Awareness Month. I think this is the perfect time to give everyone the news that Emily Krekelberg has changed jobs at Extension. She's moved from a local educator to a regional educator and will be dealing with farm safety, which includes mental health.
Emily, tell us about May is Mental Health and what you've been up to lately.
Emily: Yes, so thanks, Joe. May is Mental Health Awareness Month. Hopefully, you've all been aware of that, or if you've been on social media and seen people with green ribbons on their profile pictures or something, that's why. The green ribbon is the ribbon for mental health awareness. This is just a month that it was really started by NAMI, which is the National Alliance on Mental Illness, as a way to spread awareness about mental health, share tips on mental health, share education about mental illness as well.
It's a month that is really important to me. I have been on my own journey with mental health and with mental illness as well. It's a great opportunity for people to share stories and be able to educate and advocate and all of those things. Especially, it feels timely right now given everything we are going through with a global pandemic and the craziness of spring on the farm and everything else. What I've been up to, too, like you said, Joe, I took a new job with Extension. I am an educator for farm safety and health. [cheers]. This is basically my dream job. I've always been passionate about the topics of farm safety and health.
Of course, right now, we do have a big emphasis on the mental health side of things but too, I think it's important for people to remember that health and safety are very closely correlated. We do see an increase in farm accidents in times of high stress or when people have poor mental health as they're not thinking clearly or whatever else it may be. It is really relevant always to be talking about these topics together.
Joe: I think before we get too far into things, and we'll cover it now and then we'll come back to it at the end just to make sure everybody gets a chance to hear it, the first thing is, where can people go, they want to learn more, or where can they go if they're looking for ways to get help?
Emily: I just want to remind anybody listening that if it's help that you need, you're not alone. Please, please know that there are so many people that support you and care about you, and it's not wrong that you want help. It's okay to not be okay. It's okay to ask for help. I would say the best places to go for that online, you can go to our Rural Stress webpage on the Extension website. You can get there through z.umn.edu/ruralstress.
The Minnesota Department of Agriculture also has a webpage full of resources, and that's mnfarmstress.com. On there, you will find a lot of different information, information about support for mental health and stress management, including our rural mental health specialists in the state of Minnesota. They are available to farmers and farm families, free of cost, no paperwork. Also, information about the Minnesota Farm and Rural Helpline, and that is a helpline that's free, confidential, available 24/7. There's information if you need financial help. Extension offers free farm financial counseling. There's information on there if you need legal help, farmers legal action groups, some other groups on there too. There's a ton of resources there.
I would also add that if you are concerned about somebody more immediately that they may be suicidal or may be intending to harm themselves or others, your options are- if it's an immediate threat, I would say call 911. Also, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. That's 1-800-273-TALK, or 8255. You can also text the number, 741741, and you can send them just MN. That's a national text line, but if you send them Minnesota, they'll be able to connect you to resources within the state right away.
Joe: Now, like you said, we're in the middle of this global pandemic. We're faced with all this uncertainty. What is this doing specifically to farmers right now? What new stressors are we seeing?
Emily: I'm glad you said new stressors because we need to remember that there are those stressors that have already existed that farmers have been dealing with.
Joe: Farmers are stressed-out people, to begin with. There's a lot of uncertainty in just normal everyday life.
Emily: Right, and farmers deal with uncertainty every day. In a sense, they are somewhat already resilient to some of these problems, but on the other hand, there are new problems being introduced that none of us have been prepared for. I don't think we need to belabor the day-to-day stresses of farming, economies, livestock illness, crop yields, et cetera. We know all of those exist, but what we're seeing now is, like you said, Joe, this really high level of uncertainty and a very big lack of answers. Those things are very hard for people to cope with, not just farmers, anybody in general.
I think that we have seen an increase in stress and anxiety across the board from everybody because we're all experiencing some level of uncertainty, not knowing what's going to happen. All of those things wrapped up into it.
Joe: One of my questions around that is, okay, so we've got all this uncertainty, no answers out there. I think if you boil it down, it's just a lack of a plan. Farmers love to plan, and they got to be looking a year ahead at the earliest, and they're looking often 5, 10 years down the road. How do you deal with that? Is there a way to make a plan and feel like you have some control when it's almost impossible to make a plan, you know what I'm saying?
Emily: I know what you're saying, and you said a keyword there, control. That is, I think, the biggest problem with ambiguity is we feel like we don't have control and that's really hard. I do think that there are steps that people can take to feel like they have a little more control. I think making a plan is a great way to do that, but I would caution people to think about not just one singular plan, "Here's this box. We have to fit into it. If we don't, the whole thing's out the window." Make a plan that allows for flexibility.
It's maybe a plan with multiple parts, and it's almost like a choose-your-own-adventure book. "If X, Y, or Z happens, we're doing this." [crosstalk] "If A, B, or C happens, we're going to do that." That way you can put yourself at ease somewhat knowing that, okay, we do have some ideas of what we can do, and we are prepared for more than one outcome. Because I think where people get stuck is, yes, they make a plan, but it is so specific that if it doesn't go exactly according to that plan, you're worse off than when you started.
Joe: That makes a lot of sense. I like that analogy, the make your own adventure or choose your own adventure book. That's a good way to think about it.
Emily: Yes. Well, I'm very smart.
Joe: Well, yes. We've established that. It's just a given, right?
Emily: [chuckles] All right, Bradley. You're a little quiet over there.
Joe: I know. What is going on?
Bradley: Well, I don't know much about mental health and stress- well, of course, we all know about stress, but I'm learning a lot. It's hard to try and come up with good questions to do. Maybe that leads into maybe we're not very open about talking with that. How do you deal with- or how do you talk with other people and have conversations with people about mental health in agriculture? That's probably a good thing. I'm not comfortable talking about it.
Emily: I can tell. No, that's a really great question though, Brad. I do appreciate that. I can say that, yes, talking about mental health is hard, and I'm somebody who does it somewhat professionally, I guess. Those are tough conversations, and I share often about my personal journey. If you follow me on social media, you know this, and even just a little bit from our last podcast, and I'm sure today I'll talk more about it, but there's that little edge, that little bit of discomfort even for me still. For some people, it's all discomfort for the whole thing. That is simply because we haven't learned how to really talk about it, and also because it is so intangible.
For example, tell a little bit more about my other personal journey, I'm training for a marathon. I currently have a stress fracture in my foot. Not happy about it, but I have the stress fracture. My foot is taped every day. I'm currently sitting with it up and elevated, there's ice on it. When we have physical injuries, and the people I live with, they can see that I'm injured, people can see my foot is taped, they ask how I'm doing, "Do you need anything?" All of that. It's easy for me to talk about because it has some sort of tangible, visible piece to it.
When we're thinking about issues with our mental health or having a mental illness, we can't see that, and we don't know how to talk about just what we're feeling. Because you think of even when you have a kid-- and Brad, you got a slew of kids, and Joe, you're about to have little Emilio.
Joe: It's close.
Emily: When your kid is crying, or they tell you something hurts and you go, "Well, where does it hurt?" They can point to where they're in pain. When we mentally aren't doing well, where do I point? To my head because of my brain? To my heart? That is what can make it so uncomfortable. I don't think people like when I say this, but sometimes it's like you just got to get some grit and talk about it. I will tell you that the more you talk about it, the easier it can get. It's kind of just this one-time leap of faith, and that can really help just open up this whole new world of being able to talk about it.
I tell people this all the time too. Again, you're not alone. So many people I talk to, just farmers, have been like, "I thought I was the only one dealing with this." Then they hear about the work I'm doing, and I share some stories about some of the other farmers I've worked with, and they say-- and part of the message during May for Mental Health Awareness Month is that each year, one in five people will have a mental health crisis. One in five. That's a lot of people. 20%. I'm not good at math. 20%.
Joe: Yes, 20%
Emily: This is why I work in this realm, not math [crosstalk]--
Joe: Well, I think it's important to point out too that the courage is both ways. It's from the person that's struggling with the mental health issue and whether or not they can talk about it, but it's from the other people that can potentially see that something isn't quite right. It's them also reaching out. There's two ways there to come at it. I think it's just as important to work up the courage to ask about somebody and how they're doing and if everything's okay, just as much as it is the other way, to have someone, if you are feeling that way, to reach out to someone for help.
I think that a lot of times that you get over that gut feeling and that problem by having someone reach out that isn't struggling with the mental health crisis themselves.
Emily: You're right, is you have to get over that hump and yes, be courageous to have that conversation. For a lot of people, if they are in crisis or just under a high level of stress, they will isolate. They will put themselves out on their own, again because they feel alone and nobody understands. By approaching that person and saying, "Hey, I care about you, and I see that something's wrong. How can I help you?" That acknowledgment can offer so much relief.
I know, as somebody who I struggled for a long time, I had undiagnosed anxiety and depression, swept it under the rug, acted like it was fine. Then it finally just took people reaching out and acknowledging the fact that they saw it wasn't fine, even when I said I was. We can't hide behind that forever of just somebody going, "I'm fine," and us going, "Okay, they must be." Be courageous. Have that conversation. Yes, it takes courage on both sides to say, "Yes, I'm not well," and to say, "I care about you, and I don't think you are well."
It just reminds me of a quote from a book, actually. The book is A Game of Thrones. You've maybe heard of it. The son asks the father, "Can a man be brave if he's afraid?" The dad goes, "That's the only time a man can be brave." It's okay if you're uncomfortable and if it's scary because it is. It's scary to put yourself out there. Just because there is so much stigma around mental health, we're afraid that people are going to label us crazy or unstable, or make up all these things or gossip about us, and I get that.
I think you need to be able to put that aside and think, "I am not well and me ignoring this because of other people, that's really selfish." You owe it to yourself. You deserve to feel good.
Joe: Absolutely, and it spills over. It definitely does. You can't help but have it spill over every once in a while. I think that gets into-- there's a lot of things that we want to cover today, but one of these things that we talk about as far as stigma and things that people don't want to address is medication. When we look at medications and prescriptions that can help you, I think people are very hesitant and they're concerned about being put on medications and they feel like that's a big step.
Can you give us a little bit about- or how they should be dealing with that question of whether or not to go on medication or how they should feel about it?
Emily: Yes, absolutely. I know this from firsthand experience. I will preface this by saying I am on medication currently. I take two different things. I think really where this all starts is what we tell people a lot is if they think they want to see somebody for their mental health, like a therapist, or if they aren't feeling well, they should really bring it up with their doctor first. Then what I often hear from people, and I know this because I've experienced it as well, is they say, "Well, yes, then my doctor just wants to put me on something right away." I know that for some people that may seem like it's a cop-out, or it's just because the doctor is not a mental health professional, but typically, your doctor should be able to refer you to somebody.
I will say in my case, in my journey, I was very reluctant to go on medication for a lot of my own personal reasons, but the biggest thing, I was just scared and mostly scared of stigma, and I was really scared that that medication would make me somebody that I wasn't. I think that that's something that gets shared along with this stigma is people call them happy pills or chill pills or say all these things about them, and that we think it makes us a shell of our former self. I just remind people, you have to be your own greatest advocate.
I was very clear with my care team from the beginning that I wanted to try other options before medication. I never said no medication ever, absolutely no way, but I said I wanted to try some other things, and so I did. I went on a pretty intense therapy schedule. I'm still on an intense therapy schedule. I go once a week. Also, upped my self-care, was doing meditation, all of these things, and it just wasn't enough. I was talking to my physician again, just told her, I'm like, "I'm really concerned about going on medication because I'm just really afraid that I'm not going to be myself." She looked at me and she goes, "Do you feel like yourself right now?" That was it for me. I was like, "Yes, you got me there. I don't, and maybe this will help me feel like myself."
That was a really eye-opening experience, and I have found you have to reframe your thinking around it. Why do I use therapy? Why do I meditate? Why do I work out? Why do I do these things? They're all tools for my wellness, and medication is another tool for that. I know that it can be scary. I think of, too, I talked to my physician about it and she was very clear, you may reach a point where you're able to get off of it, and so I set that as my goal. "I'm not going to be on [unintelligible 00:20:24]." I am still on it. My dosage has tripled since I started taking it. Every time my dosage gets upped, I just see me getting off of it moving further and further away. I've reached a point where I'm like, "You know what? That's okay, because again, it's a tool."
Don't get me wrong, I still have hard days. I still will have a panic attack. I will still have days where I just fully descend back down to where I was, but that's just for a short period of time. The medication helps correct a chemical imbalance in my brain. That's all they're doing. It's just so great to have that tool. If I do need to use it for the rest of my life, then I do. I tell people too that, yes, some people can go off of it eventually. I know some people that are on it for 6 months, some people will be on it for 18 months. It's not any sort of a life sentence. It doesn't need to be.
Too, you have to be really honest with yourself and your physician about what's working, what's not. Sometimes you need to try multiple kinds of medications to figure out what the best fit is going to be. It is a long and winding journey, and I know that it's hard and complicated, but it is so worth it to feel better. I don't feel like a zombie, and I don't feel like a shell of my former self. I am me and I'm a better version of me now, and the medication helped me reach that point.
Bradley: Hey, I heard you say something about a personal care team. Who's involved in a care team? It's probably not just a medical doctor. There's many other people. Who could all that be?
Emily: Yes. My care team, when I say that, I refer to, yes, my doctor, my primary physician. Then my clinic has on staff therapists at all times so that if there is a more emergency situation or in doing mental health screening, the physician wants you to see somebody right away, you can. I got connected with one of those people. She's in the clinic system, which is nice because she has access to my chart, she can see what I'm on, all of those things. Then at that time, I also had another outside therapist. Then, too, I would say my care team also included some of my inner circle, a really close friend, my sister, just those people that I know I can really lean on to give me good, honest advice.
I really encourage people, like I said, you have to be your own best advocate. The way to advocate for yourself, too, is, yes, find that team. Find who can be your care team and help you with this. Just like it's not going to be one single treatment, it's probably not going to be one single person. You need your doctor involved if you are going to be medicated. I am a huge proponent for therapy, and so you need that person involved.
I know I'm probably making it sound really complicated and overwhelming. I want people to know that this didn't just all fall together overnight. These are pieces that I have built over the course of a year at this point now is when I first started on this journey. It does take time, but each step has led me to feeling better and better.
Joe: I had a train of thought, and now it's gone. Oh, I got it back. Here it is. I think one of the things that I struggle with the most, and I think a lot of people probably have the same struggle, is we all have periods where we get super stressed out and we're worried about our own mental wellbeing and our mental health, but stress is there for a reason. We need some of it. It's there for a reason and we've evolved to have it be there for a reason, but how do you know when you've hit that point where it's just too much? Where's the tipping point, or how can you tell that you've gone past that point into really it's too much stress?
Emily: That is a really great question. I do agree with you that some amount of stress is good for us, even. Because stress is related to everything, chemical reactions in our brains, hormones being released. When we're stressed, our brain releases cortisol, and some level of cortisol can be motivating and be a good thing. Like I said, motivation can help us actually get back into focus and can keep us going because it's a very powerful hormone, so it takes over. It's when our brain is dumping excessive amounts of cortisol that it starts to be bad because our cortisol can also impact our overall health. It can lead to heart disease, physical health issues, and of course, mental health issues.
As far as how much stress is too much stress, there is no hard answer on that because we all cope with stress differently and have different thresholds for stress. Similar to we have different thresholds for pain. We all deal with pain differently. The same as with stress. Some people are naturally more resilient than others. Also, I think what's happening with COVID-19 has really shined a light on this. Some people have built up more resilience over time.
Resilience really boils down to being able to adapt in times of adversity, but the way you build resilience is by going through adversity. Those that have already been through a lot of that and have had to deal with a lot of other things, they may be somewhat better at managing a higher level of stress just because they've managed it before and maybe struggled with it and now kind of a, "Knowing what I know now, I can be better moving forward." How much is too much, or when do you know you need help, that is up to you. People know themselves better than anybody else knows them.
I really think there's something to be said for gut feelings and for intuition. I know that I lied to myself for a long time. Then I just reached that point where I knew, and it was like I had known for a long time but been resistant to it. Then it was like, "No, this isn't right. This is not doing me any good. There is something wrong, and I need help if I ever want to feel better again." Some people, they will have actual reactions. People will say, "Oh, yes, one day I just burst out crying for no reason or screamed at my sister for no reason," whatever it may be. There may be some of those outbursts. You think of it just like a pot of boiling water. It reaches the point and it will boil over. My goal is to reach people before they reach that point.
Joe: Yes, you definitely want to be preventative if you can. It's good to know that stress management is a learned activity. It's nice to know that, yes, some people are better at dealing with it inherently and they have more resilience to it inherently, but it's also a learned management technique or it's something that you get through experience. It's nice to know that-- you know what I mean, what I'm trying to say? It's nice to know that you can learn it, which implies that you can become better at it, right?
Emily: Yes. It's certainly not a either you're good or you're bad, and you can never change or cross over that line. It is learned and yes, some people are naturally more resilient, just like some people are naturally better at math. I am not one of those people, as we've already proved.
Joe: Me neither.
Emily: Yes, it certainly is something. Even if you do have a mental health crisis, or like me, I have a mental illness, what I have learned, and this is what somebody else told me, is it's not that you ever get rid of it or learn how to beat it or cure it. You learn how to manage your thoughts around it better and you learn how to manage it. Some people can manage it so well that they no longer need therapy or medication or anything else. Yes, just the same with adversity and anything else, it's learned behavior. It takes time. It takes being very, very honest with your yourself, which can be harder than I think we all realize.
Joe: Oh yes, definitely. Definitely.
Emily: Yes.
Joe: I experience that same thing with my weight. I lie to myself about-
Bradley: Don't we all?
Joe: -when I'm standing in the mirror, I'm like, "Ah, I don't look that bad," but--
Emily: Or you get on the scale, then you look at what your driver's license says and you're like [crosstalk]--
Joe: Yes, and you're like, "Maybe I'm not being quite honest with myself." [laughter] I think one of the things that we're talking about learning, experience and learning this, and you've said self-care several times now. Before we got started here, Emily asked us to think of a couple things that we use in terms of self-care to relieve stress. For me, I'll go first so Brad can think, if he hasn't thought of one yet that's appropriate.
Bradley: I do have some, yes.
Joe: Good. For me, I think the thing that helps the most is having a hobby that is unrelated to work. If my hobby was to also have farm animals at home, I would have a hard time, I think. I thought about this when I was practicing too. If I was practicing, dealing with sick animals all day and worrying about all that, and then I came home and my hobby was to do that same thing, it just won't work for me. It wouldn't feel like I actually got away from work at all.
For me, it's about having a hobby. I love to hunt and fish. Those are the two that I go to right away. I do some very, very minor woodworking stuff. It's just about escaping and not having to do anything that's even remotely related to work. For me, that's what it is. One day I'll start exercising again. I guess that would be the next one.
Emily: Yes, Joe and I have gone to the gym before. He knows what he's doing.
Joe: Yes, but it doesn't happen frequently enough to matter.
Emily: Hey, Brad, what about you?
Joe: Yes, Brad.
Bradley: Well, I actually like to go on some walks. If you don't know, I live out in the boondocks in Western Minnesota. Not very many people around, so it's nice to live out on the country roads. There are some lakes by, it's nice to go for a little walk, be out in nature. I don't do that as much during the wintertime because it's a little cold, but that's always fun. Being out in nature, I was that way as a kid, was always in the woods and love it. Also, I like to golf. That's [crosstalk]--
Joe: I did not know that.
Emily: Really?
Bradley: Some people think that that might cause a lot of stress, hitting this little ball around and stuff, but yes, I do like to golf. I played in the
MGA state tournaments and stuff when I was younger. I even have a hole-in-one at the New Ulm Country Club.
Joe: Wow.
Emily: Woah.
Bradley: New Ulm, Minnesota.
Joe: Big time.
Emily: What a hotshot.
Joe: I didn't know that you like to golf that much, Brad.
Bradley: I do. Well, I guess we'll have to go if you want to go.
Joe: I am absolutely terrible [crosstalk]--
Emily: Oh, The Moos Room goes golfing. I love it [crosstalk]--
Joe: We could try it. Once I get that video equipment, we'll record it so you can see how terrible I am. It'll be pretty hilarious for everybody.
Bradley: Yes, so golf, but that's being outside too. I like being outside. I am not a big fan of being cooped up indoors. That probably brings on more stress than anything.
Joe: I think everyone is learning that right now. Maybe I'm biased just because it's spring and Minnesota is always this way, but I feel like there's more people in the parks than ever before, just trying to be outside, feel like they're not encased, and enjoy nature. I feel like we're seeing a greater appreciation for it. That's always been one of my big things. Hunting and fishing is really just an excuse to be outside in nature. Regardless if you catch anything or if you shoot anything, it's all about just being outside for the most part, and those are just ways to get there.
Emily: Love that.
Joe: How about you, Em? I know we talked about it a lot in Episode 5, but exercising is one of them, we know that.
Emily: I've gotten very into weightlifting, so I like to lift heavy things.
Joe: Getting swole.
Emily: Yes, getting swole.
[laughter]
Bradley: You lift these big sandbags around everyday too or something, don't you?
Emily: Yes. Since the gyms are closed, I did buy a sandbag, and so I'm outside in the driveway. I currently live with relatives in a suburb, and the neighbors are very curious what I'm up to, throwing around my big sandbag in the morning.
Joe: I could see that [crosstalk]--
Emily: I'm a person who grunts and yells as I do it, so I just cause a ruckus.
Joe: [chuckles] Because you get up early. It's not happening at five o'clock in the morning [crosstalk]--
Emily: Yes, it's like at 6:00.
Joe: You're out there throwing a sandbag around and yelling at six o'clock in the morning?
Emily: Yes.
Joe: Your neighbors must love you.
Emily: Well, we have neighbors with a lot of barking dogs, so I feel like the dogs catch the brunt of the hate and then I do afterwards.
Joe: Got you, fair trade.
Emily: [chuckles] Besides working out, I also really like to cook, and I really like to read, and I like to write as well.
Joe: One of my questions that I've thought about for a while, and you hear about it when I've taken classes and any training on mental health, is that word choice can be huge. I guess my big question is, how much does that matter, wording? Are there certain trigger words that should be avoided at all costs? It just seems sometimes there are so many words to avoid that it's hard to say anything. Walk me through that a little bit.
Emily: Yes. That's a really great question, Joe, and I'm trying to figure out how to answer this succinctly because I feel like we could do a whole podcast just on this.
Joe: Just on triggers.
Emily: I would say word choice does matter. I think what matters a little bit more is the way you present your words. Even the inflection in your voice is what can really make a big difference. I do think that there are certain things to be avoided. That would be, if you are concerned that somebody is coping in an unhealthy way, may potentially be thinking about hurting themselves or attempting to take their own life, asking a question like, "You're not going to do anything dumb, are you?" I would say avoid that because you just called the person dumb, and they're already in a bad spot, and you are just exacerbating that situation. I think things like that.
I know this happened to me, and I know this person meant well, but I said something about-- I was with a friend, and I couldn't have a drink at the bar because of my medication. There are certain interactions with that. At that time, I wasn't allowed to have alcohol, so I said, "Oh, I can't because I'm taking some medication," didn't think anything of it. Their response, and I imagine it came from a place of discomfort, they just go, "Oh, what, are you going insane on me?" Or, "Are you going to psycho on me?" They said something like that.
I would say avoid words like insane, psycho, crazy, unstable, all of those things that are really negative connotations around mental health and mental illness. I think too, you just need to be really mindful more of how you say it. Like I said, anything that ends-- if you're asking them a question, and you end it with, "Are you?" That is very accusatory, and you're basically begging the person to say no.
Joe: Yes, you've already led them into that. You've created that.
Emily: Yes. Like, "You're not depressed. Are you?"
Joe: Yes, you're making them defensive right from the get go.
Emily: Yes, and so I really encourage people to think about how they can be non-accusatory. When I encourage them to talk to somebody, and I know we talked about this on Episode 5, is start with what I call a statement of concern. Just saying something like, "I'm really worried about you. I'm somebody who loves you and cares about you. I'm somebody who wants to listen." Then you ask a question, and it really needs to be a question that allows them to take the driver's seat. My favorite one to ask people is, "What do you want me to know about how you've been feeling?" Because you really allow them to say as much or as little as they want if you say it that way.
Joe: That's a good way to go. Keeping it open-ended seems the right way to be and keeping it from being accusatory. I feel like it takes a lot of courage to reach out and ask somebody those kinds of things, and when you throw on that the added hesitation because of the things that you're not supposed to say, I think it adds to that. I think it's good to have something that's a go-to that you can say, and starting it with letting that person know where you stand right now in terms of your relationship and how much you care for them is a great way to start.
I've always wondered about that because there's a lot of things. I took that course that you were involved in, Em, and there was a lot of things you weren't supposed to say. I've always wondered that.
Bradley: Do you think that prevents people from actually asking others because they don't know what to say?
Emily: Absolutely-
Joe: Yes, all the time.
Emily: -and I think that because, like Joe said, we get this big list of, here's all the things not to say, and I don't think we get enough lists of, here's what to say.
Joe: Yes, I totally agree. There's all these things to avoid and you don't get to, here's what you can say.
Emily: Yes. I would say just really focus in on the person and on the fact that you want to help them. Don't focus-- again, avoid being accusatory, I think is a really big, big thing with this. Just let it be, yes, that acknowledgment that like, "Hey, I noticed that you're not doing well, but I really want you to be better. What do you want me to know about how you've been feeling? Who are you comfortable talking to? How can I help you find help?" That's a really good question to ask too.
Joe: Yes, and I'm one of those people that in an uncomfortable situation or a situation that makes me upset or anything, I'm always a person that tries to turn to a joke, and that's probably not a good idea in the situation. You want to make sure that this person knows that you're being serious and you're taking the situation seriously and you truly are concerned. It's not a time to try to find a silver lining or to make a joke or attempt to create humor. It's really a time to just be to the point, serious and concerned, and make everything in your demeanor say that.
Emily: Yes, and you just hit on a point, Joe, that I want to revisit, and that is don't try to silver-line it. I think that when we do that, and I'm somebody who used to do it all the time, I know that we have all the best intentions when we're doing that. Trying to show people, "Yes, but also hold on to this glimmer of hope," but what can happen when you do that, that's a really sympathetic response versus an empathetic response. When we silver-line things, what we're basically telling people is, "Yes, you're going through this thing and it's bad, but it could be worse. You should be grateful it's not this bad." You're not validating that what they're going through is really hard for them.
While I know it comes from a good place, and I know that now in doing this work so that when it does happen to me personally, I don't get too upset about it, but for some people, if they're teetering on the edge, that can be something that can just be like, "Oh, wow, yes, so I guess the way I feel doesn't matter."
Joe: To be honest, I think it's a Minnesota thing, the silver lining thing. I think between the weather in the winter and just how everyone is so concerned about everyone else and trying to find ways to help in any way possible, it's just a thing that I tend to see in Minnesota a lot. The silver lining is almost a Minnesota thing.
Bradley: That's right.
Joe: I think, yes, just be careful of that one. That one, it's very tempting. It's very tempting, but it's definitely the wrong way to go.
Emily: One final thought I would add to that is if you don't know what to say, what you can say is, "Wow, I don't even know what to say, but I'm so glad you told me."
Joe: Exactly.
Emily: Just throwing that, "I'm so glad you told me," that validates to them that, yes, being open was a good thing so keep doing that.
Joe: That's a good thought.
Emily: You can tell them you don't know what to say. A lot of the time, they're not looking for a response. They're not looking for you to fix things or give them advice. They're looking to get it off their chest. "I don't know what to say, but I'm so happy you told me." I say that to people a lot, and I can tell that it's like that's just the thing they need to hear, validation that them sharing their feelings is okay and is good.
Joe: I definitely agree with that. That's perfect. All right, let's- I think we should wrap it up. We got plenty of tape there. Well, before we go, we're going to try to wrap up with a thought from everybody. We'll let Emily go last since she's the [crosstalk]--
Emily: The expert, yes.
Joe: The expert.
Emily: Don't forget it. [chuckles]
Joe: Yes, so we'll let Emily go last. Brad, you want to give us a final parting thought to share with everybody during this global pandemic where we're all stuck inside?
Bradley: Go outside, enjoy the fresh air, let your mind just wander, and enjoy the freedom outside and let your mind go, and get away from all of the media and the news and everything and just enjoy that. That's my parting thought that I would do.
Joe: That's a good thought. That's great advice because that will help a lot of people if they can just get away from everything, even just for a little bit.
Emily: Yes.
Joe: All right, I'll go next, and then Em is up. To me, I think what we found during this whole time is social distancing has made it a very unique time to try to be there for somebody else. I've been very happily surprised at how much you can be there for someone without actually being there in person. My parting thought is to reach out in any way, and just because you can't see a person face-to-face doesn't mean you can't be there for somebody.
I've even written letters to people, snail mail-style. There's so many ways to connect and reach out. We're podcasting on Zoom right now because we can't meet in-person. There's so many ways to reach out between the phone, the mail, just checking in in very small ways. Don't let not being there in person prevent you from being there for somebody.
Emily: That's great, Joe. You can cut this out if you don't want it on the podcast, but an example of that is Joe knows when I'm having a bad day, all three of us, we're actually friends, and what Joe will do, he'll text me a picture of his dog, Murphy. My favorite one was Murph wrapped up in a blanket and said, "A Murph dumpling."
Joe: [chuckles] Dogs are great for it. They pull you out of some bad spots sometimes.
Emily: What I want to say goes out to everybody, but especially to somebody who may be listening to this and may be making some realizations about themselves or about how they're doing. I just want you to know that I am rooting for you, I feel for you, I care about you, I support you, I see you. Even if we have never met, just know that there is somebody out there who wants to see you succeed and do well and be well, and that is me. I truly mean it when I say I'm rooting for you, and I think I speak for all three of us when I say that too.
Joe: Absolutely. We're all rooting for you out there. If you need to find some help or need to find some resources, please go to those resources that Emily mentioned. The first one being the Rural Stress Task Force has a website at z.umn.edu/ruralstress. mnfarmstress.com is a great resource as well. Those are great places to start, great places to start. The information there is geared towards farmers, but can help anybody. If you have questions for us, even on anything related to mental health or other ways that you need to find help, please catch us at themoosroom@umn.edu. That's T-H-E-M-O-O-S-R-O-O-M@umn.edu. [crosstalk]--
Emily: If you would like to reach out to me personally, you can email me at krek0033@umn.edu.
Joe: Personal email out there. Definitely reach out if you need to. We're here for everybody. That's our job at Extension to be here for everybody, so don't hesitate to reach out. If you need anything else, or reference, or need a place to start looking for some of these resources, you can go to extension.umn.edu and start there and find your way to some of these resources as well.
Thank you, everybody, for listening. Be there for each other. We'll catch you next episode.
You [unintelligible 00:48:43] look amused. [chuckles] You're trying not to laugh and trying to be serious.
Emily: Grab my stress ball.
[laughter]
Joe: It's like meditation kind of.
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