The Moos Room™

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[cow mooing]
Emily: ?Welcome everybody to The Moos Room. We have The Gruesome Twosome today. Bradley couldn't join us, so it's myself and Joe. We are continuing our May Mental Health Awareness Month series with another really special guest this week. We are joined by Monica McConkey. Monica wears many, many hats, and I'll let her run through all of them. A big part of Monica's work is being one of two rural mental health specialists in the state of Minnesota. Monica and Ted Matthews travel the state and work with farmers and farm families who may be struggling and need some therapy, counseling, and some different help in that way. Monica, we're really excited to have you on today.
Monica: I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Emily: Before we dive into all of the good, the juicy stuff here, our listeners know that we like to ask our guests some super secret questions.
Monica: Oh boy.
Emily: Joe will tell you that there is a right and wrong answer for both of these questions. I am here to tell you that that is a lie.
Monica: [chuckles]
Emily: Don't let Joe influence you. The first question I have for you is, what is your favorite breed of beef cattle?
Monica: Oh, beef. Probably the popular answer is Angus. [chuckles]
Emily: Is that yours, though?
Monica: I will go with that. I will go with Angus, yes. [chuckles]
Emily: Joe is happy. You did give one of his answers.
Joe: Yes.
Emily: Joe, where are we at on the leaderboard?
Joe: We haven't run through this total for a while, so Black Angus is at 11 now with that vote, Herefords at 8, Black Baldy at 4, Belted Galloway at 2, Scottish Highlander at 2, Red Angus with 2, and then all with 1 stabilizer, Gelbvieh, Brahman, Chianina, Charolais, Simmental, Nelore, Jersey, Normande, and Shorthorn.
Monica: See, I was going to say Shorthorn because that's what I showed, but I showed Dairy Shorthorn, so it doesn't really--
Emily: This may be your chance then, Monica. Because your second super secret question is, what is your favorite breed of dairy cattle?
Monica: Oh, I've got to say Milking Shorthorn.
Emily: [laughs]
Monica: Milking Shorthorn. Yes, yes, yes. No question.
Emily: Now, if memory serves, you were the Milking Shorthorn Queen or something, weren't you?
Monica: I was in 1987 before you guys were probably even born. Minnesota Milking Shorthorn Queen. [chuckles]
Emily: A true celebrity in our midst.
Monica: I still have the crown and the sash, actually I do.
Emily: That's awesome. That's great.
Joe: All right. Milking Shorthorn.
Emily: I already knew this about Monica's history, so I had a hunch she was going to say Milking Shorthorn.
Monica: Although I do have a place in my heart for Jerseys and Brown Swiss, just because they're just beautiful and those Jersey eyes. Oh, gosh.
Joe: Can you change your answer then?
Monica: No.
Emily: [laughs]
Monica: I'm sorry. I can't.
Joe: All right. The correct answer is Jersey for the record.
Monica: Oh.
Emily: No, it's not.
Joe: Holsteins are in the lead with 16, Jerseys with 11, Brown Swiss with 5, Montb�liarde with 3, Dutch Belted with 2, Normande with 2, Milking Shorthorn now with 1 and 1 Guernsey named Taffy.
Emily: We like to bring guests on to hopefully skew some of the numbers a little bit. I was like, yes, Milking Shorthorn vote. That will be good. All right, well now that we have that important business out of the way, we can dive in a little bit more. I just feel like there's so many directions we could go and so many places that we could start. Monica, why don't you just start by explaining a little bit more in two, three minutes what you do, and that can be in what you do. You work with the state and I know that you are involved in some other programs and projects as well.
Monica: I'm a mental health counselor, and I have been in the field for about 26 years. Always in rural areas, but in a variety of capacities. My work right now is really dedicated to rural mental health but with a focus on mental health in agriculture. Most of my time is spent working through a position in Minnesota that's legislatively funded. I contract with Farm Business Management and I do counseling outreach with farmers and farm families. I do a lot of speaking and training with AG industry folks and farm groups all around stress and mental health and building resilience.
We are so lucky in Minnesota. We have this program that's legislatively funded, so Ted and I are available to farmers and farm families at no cost to them, no insurance bill. I meet with most of my farmers on the farm, at the kitchen table, or wherever they want to meet. Some, it's just a phone call. Some, it's over Zoom, but really the state has removed the barriers for seeking mental health help for our farmers and their families, which is pretty cool.
I do some work in Wisconsin on a variety of initiatives. Same thing in North Dakota, speak in other parts of the country, but my primary work that's right here in Minnesota.
Emily: You are from a Minnesota family farm that I know. Your parents are still farming there, and I believe your son is there now, so want to briefly tell us about the farm?
Monica: Yes, so the farm is right outside of Bejou, Minnesota, which is a town of about 90 people. A little bit north of Mahnomen, about an hour north of Detroit Lakes, just to put it in context. It's a fifth-generation farm. My 20-year-old son being the fifth generation. He farms with my brother and my parents and are all crop farming now. When I was growing up, we had hogs and beef on occasion, and we showed dairy. We didn't dairy. The legacy is alive and well and hopefully continuing, but I definitely recall and currently see all of those stressors that impact the mental health of our farmers.
Emily: I'm very fortunate in that I have gotten to work with Monica a lot in the past on various projects and programs and presentations and what have you. I do really think, Monica, that just your background in growing up in this and living this and like you said, legacy, that's a huge word for me when I'm talking about farm stress because it's a really important component of it. I think you bring a really unique perspective in that way. We know, even just anecdotally, that a lot of farmers don't seek care because they don't want to work with somebody who doesn't understand farming.
Monica: That is exactly right. I've had so many people tell me I went, and they didn't understand, or I didn't go because I didn't know how I was going to explain my entire lifestyle in a way that they would understand where the stress comes from. It's out there.
Joe: I was looking through some of your materials, and one of the things that came up was helping organizations and other people be agriculturally competent. I think that's what you're talking about. Can you walk us through what that means in your mind and how you teach other people and other organizations to be agriculturally competent?
Monica: Yes, definitely. This has been a great opportunity. There's been rural healthcare providers, behavioral healthcare providers that have reached out because they don't retain their farmer clients. If a farmer comes in for an appointment, it's hit and miss, and then they eventually drop out. Same with healthcare providers to get the farmers in the door, they're often coming in with physical complaints that are very tied to the stress of the farm. If they don't have that understanding of the world of agriculture, it's really hard to be able to treat that person. I don't know if that's a real term.
I just started calling it agricultural competence because it is like its own culture. To understand it is critical when you're treating farmers. Yes, we've had opportunities to meet with different healthcare organizations and mental health practitioners and just talk about, first of all, what does agriculture look like in your region or your area? Because we drive by the fields, but do we understand what's going on? Understanding the seasonality of it, and then really diving into the uncontrollables and all of the pressures and stress that come with it and how it impacts farmers and their families and what it looks like.
What does it look like when they're talking or in your office? It's giving them an overview of what is farming and ranching. What does it look like? Then a little deeper dive into the stressors and their impacts.
Emily: I think that's so important, and we've known for a long time. In Minnesota and across the country, we have a hard time getting rural providers, especially for mental and behavioral health services. I think, like you said that agricultural competency piece is really important for professionals that will be serving agricultural audiences. It's just another one of those pieces that I think helps build trust.
I imagine, Monica, that in your role, you get some nervous phone calls, or people who are really uncomfortable that they're calling you, so you got to work on building that trust up right away. Can you just speak very briefly to that, of people that call and you can tell are really nervous and perhaps a message to the people who are listening to this episode that want to call, should call but aren't, or haven't yet?
Monica: It is hard to make that call. It really is. When I get a call and somebody is on the other line, and typically, it's pretty obvious they're pausing and they'll even say, '' I don't even know where to start.'' It's so overwhelming to them to even start to identify what's going on. I just start talking to them about the farm. It's like, ''Tell me about your farm, multiple generations, where are you at, how long have you been doing it?'' Crops, livestock, because they know their farm, and that's our comfort zone. That's where we start, and it very quickly moves into what they're struggling with.
Emily: That just ties so nicely to what you said about that agricultural competency piece. Is when someone's nervous, you want to get them in a zone where they're comfortable. It's like, ''All right, let's just talk about the farm for a while.'' Like you said, then usually from there, some of the things start to become clear of what that person's needs are. A lot of people say that first phone call can be the hardest step in the journey. The biggest roadblock.
Monica: Absolutely. It is hard. I give them a lot of credit because it takes a lot of courage to make that call, and unfortunately, because it's hard, a lot of people wait and the hole they're in gets a little bit deeper and they're struggling more. By the time they make the call, they're really in a tough place, which is okay. It's better that they called them than not at all. Then we just start working with where are you at, and let's start climbing out of that hole.
Joe: It brings back this whole agricultural competency piece again because what I worry about is that someone's going to work up the courage to make that call, and they're going to realize the person on the other line has no idea what they're talking about. The likelihood of a second call is very low. Farmers, as we all know have some of the best BS detectors in the world. They know, if you don't know what you're talking about, or if you can't truly relate to them, they're going to know and they're going to know pretty quick.
Monica: Yes. It'd be better for someone just to say upfront, ''You know what, I don't know a lot about farming, but I'll listen and I'm here to help.'' It'd be better to put that out in the beginning versus trying to fake their way through it.
Emily: Joe and I have discussed this a lot on the podcast. Monica, you and I have discussed that, and listeners know I've dealt with my own mental health struggles. I just think if you ask anyone, they would say the same thing. It is that really severe feeling of isolation, of I'm the only one going through this, nobody understands. What I've learned over time is that there's almost always somebody else going through it, and there's always a lot of people that understand. What are some of the things that you see regularly, that people are really wanting to get help with, and how you approach some of those topics?
Monica: Sure. That is so true what you just said because I'll even have people ask me, ''Am I the only one that is dealing with this, or do you see other people that are dealing with this?'' It's like, ''Yes, I can assure you, you are not the only one, and I see many people dealing with this.'' I get a lot of calls for stress in relationships. Whether that's relationships between farming partners, siblings, or parents and the next generation, primarily spouses. Things have just broken down to the point that they're ready to call it quits and walk away. That's very typical, and of course, the farm plays a big role in relationships when they're trying to manage a lot of moving parts together, a lot of anxiety where there's racing thoughts, inability to sleep, that's very common.
Depression, same thing where they're just not motivated. They don't find joy anymore. Maybe springtime, what I hear from farmers is, I don't even really care. I know I've got to go put the crop in, but I don't even feel excited about it like I used to. There's just that low feeling, and that may and is often accompanied by alcohol use to try to just numb it, which of course we know makes it worse. That's all pretty common. I meet with a lot of families that are going through farm transitions and there's tension. I guess is a good word in their relationships. We work through lots of communication stuff, and relationship things, and personality things to help that transition move forward. Those are the top issues that I see.
Emily: Thanks for sharing that, Monica. As I was listening to you say that I was thinking, ''Yes, that's a lot of what I see.'' I occasionally, I'm contacted and refer people to Monica, and it's a lot of issues like that. The one thing I just want to stick on here for briefly is working with people in farm transition. That is such a vital place to be providing mental support, and mental health care. Just as we see that, yes, all these big changes that come up, so I just want to make this extra plug of, hey, if you're working on a transition, you have your lawyer, you get your different people in place. Do you have a therapist or a counselor in place?' There are so many things you can do in that process that a lawyer can't. Just conversations you can have, questions you can ask.
Monica: Absolutely. It's not like you can write a book about the best way to go through a farm transition, apply it to everybody because every operation is so unique and the players in the game are so unique. There are some overarching truths that you can apply, but there's really not a guide. People feel like they're going into uncharted territory and really don't know how to manage it. Then you have the dynamics of the relationship and the stress, and the feelings of leaving the farm and turning the farm over to the next generation. There's a lot going on with transitions.
Emily: You can dress it up as it's business only, but there's still going to be emotional attachments there too. I think it's so great that there are families that are bringing you in to help them through that transition process.
Monica: I love it. I love meeting the people. They always apologize to me when they're bringing me in, like, ''We're sorry ahead of time. This is not going to be fun." It's good. It's good, and it's a process. No right or wrong, it's a process.
Emily: I feel like that apology thing that's very Minnesotan-like. We're so sorry we're asking you to come and do your job. [chuckles] I just think it's so great when people recognize that they need that help. Shifting gears a little bit, because I know that this is a question I get asked often. I know that this is a thing that I have referred to you Monica a couple times. What can people do, or what should we think about when we have somebody who we feel really need some help and they're reluctant to get that help, but us as caretakers or partners, or whatever it might be, we want to get that person in to see you per se, but there's this reluctance. What should we be thinking about with people like that, those that really need the help but are really reluctant and knowing far well, nobody's really going to get better unless they want to get better?
Monica: It is tough. It's different when it's a kid and a parent calls me and they're worried and I'm there. We just put it on the schedule and I'm there, and those kids don't really have a choice. They can participate or not, but to get me there is a parent decision. When we're dealing with adults that we're worried about, it's a whole different ballgame. Different things work with different people. I get calls like the example you're giving Emily, almost every day. That I'm worried, I don't know what to do. I think there's levels of concern. Obviously, on the high end if they're in crisis mode, if they're suicidal with a plan, that's a call to 911. That's life or death. That's almost easy. That's not a gray area, but there's a lot of gray areas down the line. First of all, if you recognize someone struggling, have a conversation with them. Sometimes it's just about telling them, ''This is what I'm seeing. I don't see you in church anymore. You just don't seem as happy as you were before. Are you doing okay?"
That often will open up a door and they'll start talking about stressors. The person they're talking to can say, there is a lady or Ted and they work with farmers and I've heard they're really good and sometimes you need to be there with them to make that call. I've had this happen. In fact, just last week there was a female farmer who had a friend who was not doing well, not sleeping, lots of stress. She talked to him and she joined us all on a conference call to help make that transition. Then he and I were able to follow up. That's one strategy.
Another one is I talked to just recently, again, a guy who was very, very concerned about his brother not doing well, not leaving the house. They were really worried about him and not willing to talk to anybody. I said, well why don't you just go have an open conversation with him? Tell him about me, tell him I come to the farm. We can just talk. We'll just talk. He did. He actually rounded up his other siblings and they went over there and did a little mini-intervention and called me right away from that meeting.
The brother and I set up a time and I was there the next day. It's not easy often, it's not comfortable, but just going to them and saying, this is what I've noticed and I'm worried about, you often will just open up a door. Now sometimes they'll say, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'll be fine.
Emily: They're lying when they say that.
Monica: They're lying and that's a good Minnesota response. I'm okay, I'm fine and I'm good. We just be like, "Oh good, okay." If you're seeing things don't stop there. Sometimes if someone is pretty resistant going to, if they have a close friend or a family member, a spouse or a child, an adult child, going to that person saying, "I don't know if you're seeing what I'm seeing, but I'm worried about them. Have you tried talking to them? Or maybe we can do it together." Building your team to express your care and concern to the person that you're worried about.
Just communicating, communicating, communicating. Then knowing that if they don't seek help, it is not your fault. There are no magic words. There are no magic answers. You're doing the best you can do with what you know at the time. I think it's important that people not beat themselves up that I'm not doing enough or I'm not saying the right words. you need to take care of yourself in the whole process too.
Emily: Absolutely. I really like what you said, Monica, about if you need support in doing this, build that team around yourself. Especially when it's a team of people that know and care about that person as well. That's an easy ask to make. I think most people would gladly say yes because they care about this person and want them to get help as well.
Monica: I think this is where AG industry folks come into the picture too because our farmers that are struggling often isolate. They're not seeing other people, but who they're seeing is the milk truck driver and the crop consultant, and the insurance salesman, and the nutritionist. Those are the people that I love getting in front of to just do training on suicide prevention or spotting warning signs of stress and then just keep some resources in your truck when you're going to the farms. If you're seeing something or hearing something, pass something on.
I get calls from people who get my info from lots of different places. Just recently their crop consultant agronomist gave them my info. It's those AG industry folks, Extension that they have an in because they're invading the space when someone's trying to isolate. They're getting onto that farm yard and they're seeing those people. They're critical in this discussion.
Emily: Just helping to break down that isolation piece I think is so important. Another piece you were getting at before too, with that isolation, but also just that acknowledgment. At the very beginning we were talking about the feeling of nobody is going through this, nobody gets it, nobody cares. If you are concerned about somebody, just letting them know that and acknowledging that you see they're not well. That goes so far and I think even if the person does the I'm fine and brushes you off, they'll remember that however brief the conversation was and they'll feel a little bit of validation around the way they feel.
Somebody is noticing this and noticing that it's not okay and that it is in fact-- That's huge.
Monica: Absolutely. Back in the '80s when it was really tough, my dad was struggling with a lot of anxiety and he was at the John Deere implement in Mahnomen in the little town. One of the sales guys there just started talking about the stress and tough times and that guy was vulnerable he told dad that I see a counselor and this was, talking about stigma back then. Dad's thought was, well if he can do it, I can do it and he did. I just think of how that one conversation changed, probably the whole trajectory of not just our farm, but our family being open to being vulnerable and telling your story.
Emily, you do this so well. You're really vulnerable with putting yourself out there and telling your story and that's a risk when you're in the public eye. I really encourage people to do that too. To let someone you're concerned about know that I've struggled too, not that I'm trying to solve your problem, but these are some things that I've done and I really encourage you to reach out and you're not the only one.
Emily: So critical. I think for me that's number one is just people need to know you are not alone and there are people that care and it's just so important.
Monica: It is important. Yes, it is.
Emily: Monica, I'm going to ask you the generic question that I'm sure you get a lot and that is just what would you say to somebody who is struggling or is worried about somebody that seems to be struggling? What's those one or two pieces of advice or even action items that you would give them to do?
Monica: Well, I would definitely try to plant a seed of hope that the way you feel right now it's not going to be forever. Hang in there and we're going to start-- When I talk to farmers, I say it like this, "We are going to start to work on this. We are going to start down this journey." They know they have somebody with them. Even if you're that person that's concerned, giving them that message that I'm here with you to walk this path is really big. That people feel like they're not alone. That they have an ally and that there is hope. There is hope for tomorrow. There's hope for next week. There's hope and not to give up.
Emily: I love that.
Joe: My big question and it comes up when you're talking about we and doing this all together, there's a lot of pressure on you personally to help people. Obviously, that's something you enjoy doing is helping people. What do you do to stay up and to make sure that you're okay?
Monica: I do exactly what I tell my clients to do. There's four areas of protective factors, if you will, four areas in life to really pay attention, be intentional about taking care of yourself. One is just eating healthy foods, drinking water. Physically taking care of yourself, going to the doctor, taking your medicine as prescribed. One is social. Be around positive people that are good for you. If there are people that you shouldn't be around, kick them off your bus or put them in the back. You don't have to let them sit on your lap and drive your bus for you.
Third is psychological. Watch your thinking. Watch your thinking. Each thought is like a seed you plant and which seeds are you going to water and nourish and take care of because those are the seeds that you're going to harvest. If it's negative thoughts, if it's putting yourself down, if it's blaming other people, that's going to be what your life is about. Watch your thoughts.
Then fourth is spiritual. Do what feeds your soul. For me, it's I'm a Christian, so it's your relationship with God and that type of spirituality. It's also being out in nature. It's hiking, it's snowshoeing, it's gardening that feeds my soul. I know when I'm stressed, I've got to prioritize making time to do those things more than I would when I'm not stressed. Because typically when we're stressed they go by the wayside and we dare ourselves a deeper hole. I do exactly what I'd my clients to do.
Emily: One of these days, I'm going to come up to Detroit Lakes in the winter and we're going to go snowshoeing-
Monica: Yes.
Emily: -Monica.
[laughter]
Monica: That's my salvation in the winter. I'll tell you that right now.
Emily: I believe it. Yes. Oh, I think that's so great and that's a really good note to end on, is to remember that even the people who do this work professionally need to be making the efforts to take care of themselves. I imagine that Monica, you have times where-- I don't want to say you fail, but times where you're like, "I just didn't get enough sleep or I didn't--
Monica: Oh, yes.
Emily: Because you're a human.
Monica: I see a therapist. When I'm struggling, I will call a therapist and go see a therapist. It's like if you think about a kidney doctor, it doesn't mean their kidneys can't fail just because they take care of other people's kidneys. It's the same with counselors or anybody. It's you still are a human being living life. You're still going to have things happen. Do I have to work hard to keep myself mentally okay? Yes, absolutely, I do. It's a journey that all of us are on.
Emily: I think that that is the perfect spot to wrap this episode. Monica, thank you, thank you again so much for joining us. It was such a pleasure to have you.
Monica: Thanks for having me. A good conversation.
Emily: Those of you listening, if you have questions, comments, or scathing rebuttals, you can email those to themoosroom@umn.edu.
Joe: That's T-H-E-M-O-O-S-R-O-O-M@umn.edu.
Emily: If you have a question or comment and you would like us to hear it, you can also call our voicemail and potentially be featured on a future episode of the show. You can leave us a voicemail at 612-624-3610. You can find us on Twitter @UMNmoosroom and @UMNFarmSafety. You can also visit our website for a lot of different resources related to mental health and farm stress. That's at extension.umn.edu. Monica, do you have any social media or websites you want to plug?
Monica: I sure can. Eyes on the Horizon is my company. Twitter, I'm really bad at Twitter. Emily, you're like the Twitter queen and I try to be like-- I'm in Facebook mode. Maybe it's my age, but I've got to get to Twitter, but yes, I'm on Facebook and Twitter either under Eyes on the Horizon or Monica McConkey.
Emily: Awesome. That is all that we have for this week's episode and next week we will be covering another topic for May Mental Health Awareness Month. Until then be well. Bye.
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